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Question: How much and where to get a gas bottle



 
 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old July 23rd 03, 09:20 PM posted to uk.rec.camping
Dave Eades
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 37
Default Question: How much and where to get a gas bottle

I need a gas bottle (Full) by tomorrow evening.
we're going camping and i've only just realised I have no gas bottle.

I have a Stove with a "propane"regulator.
Will this me ok or would I be better buying a "Butane" regulator

where can I get a small propane/butane gas bottle from and whats it likely
to cost?

Thanks
Dave

I do not have an empty one to exchange!


  #2 (permalink)  
Old July 23rd 03, 09:24 PM posted to uk.rec.camping
CHRIS 159
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 19
Default Question: How much and where to get a gas bottle


"Dave Eades" wrote in message
...
I need a gas bottle (Full) by tomorrow evening.
we're going camping and i've only just realised I have no gas bottle.

I have a Stove with a "propane"regulator.
Will this me ok or would I be better buying a "Butane" regulator

where can I get a small propane/butane gas bottle from and whats it likely
to cost?

Thanks
Dave

I do not have an empty one to exchange!


you dont need one to exchange. it'll cost round about a tenner dependant on
what size you need and you normally get a regulator F.O.C.



  #3 (permalink)  
Old July 23rd 03, 10:51 PM posted to uk.rec.camping
Graham[_2_]
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Posts: 28
Default Question: How much and where to get a gas bottle

"CHRIS 159" wrote in message
...

"Dave Eades" wrote in message
...
I need a gas bottle (Full) by tomorrow evening.
we're going camping and i've only just realised I have no gas bottle.

I have a Stove with a "propane"regulator.
Will this me ok or would I be better buying a "Butane" regulator

where can I get a small propane/butane gas bottle from and whats it

likely
to cost?

Thanks
Dave

I do not have an empty one to exchange!


you dont need one to exchange. it'll cost round about a tenner dependant

on
what size you need and you normally get a regulator F.O.C.


You'll be lucky !!

Cost me 10 for a regulator, and 36 for a full gas bottle - 13-99 for a
refill (7Kg)

For a gas bbq.

Gas from Homebase, and the regulator from a gas shop.

Graham


  #4 (permalink)  
Old July 24th 03, 01:37 AM posted to uk.rec.camping
CampinGazz
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Posts: 339
Default Question: How much and where to get a gas bottle


"CHRIS 159" wrote in message
...

snips bits about buying local gas bottles

maybe you'll shop around next time :-) (i didnt - i knew this place sold
gas so thats where i went)


Say that when you run out of gas 400 miles away from home on the second day
of a 2 week holiday

The reason people use calor gas or camping gas brands is because you can get
the bottles exchanged almost anywhere in the uk, they are more expensive
than local brands, but to most people that's the price you have to pay for
being able to use as much gas as you want, and know that if you run out, you
just have to pop to the site shop and exchange the bottle.

Another brand people could use is one of the petrol station brands like
shell gas, but not all petrol stations have their own brand gas available,
the shell one i worked in ages ago had calor,

Yes if your using a gas bottle just for a BBQ in your garden then a local
gas supplier will be cheaper than calor, but if you plan on going any
distance to camp, then you'll want or one day need the conveniance of a
national gas firm.

Calor charge around 30 for the bottle, called a deposit tho it isnt, you
get some of the money back if you turn in the bottle with all the paperwork
with in so many years, each year the ammount you get back goes down,
But once you have the gas bottle, you just pay the exchange fee, which
varies according to the ammount of gas you get in the bottle, a 6 kilo
propane exchange from calor used to cost me about 12,
of course once you have a bottle they don't check any paperwork to prove you
got it from them, just a bottle with calor printed on the side is enough, so
check places where pikies have been evicted from recently, they always leave
thousands of empty gas bottles laying around, pick the smallest calor one
up, take it to a shop that does calor gas, and exchange it for the bottle
you want and only pay the price of the new bottle's re-fill. (and calor will
exchange bottles of different sizes and types, they used to get arses but
aren't allowed to anymore, head office have told them to exchange any calor
bottle for any other one, as you pay for the gas contents)

This is all assuming you have a propane regulator for these types of gas
bottles.. it'll be a red round thing, about 4 inches in diamiter, and have a
large brass externaly threaded nut on a spigot coming out one side, the
nut's threads are left handed, this fits all propane gas bottles over 4.5
kilos in size,

Butane gas regulators come in different fittings, the small bottle ones have
a screw on arangement, but it's an internaly threaded nut, and a rubber type
washer in there, the next 2 sizes of bottle have clip on regulators, but
calor use a 21mm clip, other gas companies use 20mm or smaller, that's the
real reason why these local gas firms give away regulators, the calor one
will fit on some local bottles, but only just, most people realise it's not
a tight fit and get the proper regulator, some don't with obviouse
concequenses.

Camping gas uses a different regulator system (it's usually not a regulator,
more just a controll tap as most camping gas apliances use direct pressure)
this could be a screw in type regulator, but it should say camping gas and
the type of bottle it fits, not just propane (camping gas is a mixture of
butane and propane)

Finaly.. wether to use propane of butane, depends if you plan on using the
gas in low temperatures, the gas is stored as liquid in the bottles, when
your using the gas it's drawn off as a vapour, the liquid gas boils above
certian temperatures, for propane its above minus 50 degrees C or so, butane
is above plus 2 degrees.
So you can see that if you were to camp in the cooler months, using butane
the liquid gas will stop boiling and producing vapour when you need it
most.. on a cold morning to boil the kettle,

Also as gas vapour is drawn off, the liquid boils and the process makes the
cylinder cool even more, you can see proof of this on a propane cylinder
being used on a high usage apliance like a big cooker or large space heater,
the level of liquid gas will be visable outside the cylinder due to the
frost band that forms where the liquid gas is, of course with butane the
same thing happens, to when you want to boil the kettle on a frosty morning,
the stove may just light but wont have much heat output due to the low
pressure, so you turn the flame up more, which draws more gas off, causing
the bottle to go even colder, which results in even lower pressure untill
you get nothing out at all,

so for all but summer only camping, use propane, and use a regional brand
you are sure you can get where ever you plan on going camping, if you go
abroad a lot then camping gas is your only real choice for a tent camper,
it's very expensive for what you get but is available almost europe wide.


-----
On price of the gas, last year i fitted a fixed gas tank to my camper van, i
had used 6 kilo propane cylinders from calor, at about 12 a time, in them
you get 12 litres of liquid gas,

The gas tank i bought was a 30 litre tank, can take 26 litres of liquid gas
(80% fill for expansion safety), i finished fitting it to the van late at
night, and the only place open to fill it was an auto gas station, where the
gas cost's 39 pence per litre, that is expensive as it's got road duty paid
on it, but i filled the tank with it, and it cost me a tenner!
i filled my tank for less than calors prices for half the amount of gas.

When i was in europe, i called into luxembourg, known for cheap fuels, like
diesel for 40 pence per litre, and i filled the gas tank for 4 euro's!! it
took over 20 litres,
i've just bought a camping gas cooker, and bought a 470 cartridge for 3.75,
450 gramms total weight, so under a litre of liquid gas for almost 4 quid,
now that stuff is expensive.


  #5 (permalink)  
Old July 24th 03, 03:19 AM posted to uk.rec.camping
marc
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Posts: 72
Default Question: How much and where to get a gas bottle

Graham wrote:


Gas from Homebase, and the regulator from a gas shop.


ROFL!!!


Never heard of Shell Gas?
  #6 (permalink)  
Old July 24th 03, 07:37 AM posted to uk.rec.camping
GAW
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default Question: How much and where to get a gas bottle

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:37:19 +0000 (UTC), "CampinGazz"
wrote:

Snip

so for all but summer only camping, use propane, and use a regional brand
you are sure you can get where ever you plan on going camping, if you go
abroad a lot then camping gas is your only real choice for a tent camper,
it's very expensive for what you get but is available almost europe wide.


This is a very useful post - Everything you wanted to know about Gas
in one place - I'll be printing it off for future reference......

One question though, given that propane is so good, why use butane at
all? And why do camping shops sell butane by default (without giving
you a choice) even in Spring? - Please don't tell me that it is
because the bottles are the same colour as Camping Gaz.
  #7 (permalink)  
Old July 24th 03, 11:54 AM posted to uk.rec.camping
CampinGazz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 339
Default Question: How much and where to get a gas bottle


"Gaw" wrote in message
news

One question though, given that propane is so good, why use butane at
all? And why do camping shops sell butane by default (without giving
you a choice) even in Spring? - Please don't tell me that it is
because the bottles are the same colour as Camping Gaz.


Well... butane does have a slightly higher calorific value, it's one of
these things that on paper looks good, so apparantly you can get more cups
of tea out of a butane bottle than a propane bottle as the butane should
burn hotter, in reality you dont notice any differance unless your heating
things in lab conditions, using a very expensive thermomiter and logging
things to the split second,
in a windy field the kettle will boil in about the same time on either gas,
and last for near enough the same time too, (unless it gets too cold, when
you chuck the butane bottle accross the field

Propane bottles are the same size as butane bottles, but apparantly hold
less gas, 6 kilo propane bottles are 7 kilo butane bottles,
however propane is stored at a higher pressure than butane, so more liquid
is squeezed into the bottle, so you still get the same amount of gas vapour
on each bottle, just the storage of it in it's liquid form is at different
pressures.

BUT as propane is stored at a higher pressure, it's delivered from the
regulator at a higher pressure, a propane regulator will give out 37
millibars of gas, while a butane regulator gives out 28 millibars,
However almost all cooking/heating equipment that runs on bottled gas says
it can run on either, some cookers may need re-jetting to use propane.. if
you get a very yellow flams on a cooker using propane, then it's prolly got
butane jets in it, but everything i've ever owned has a jet inbetween the 2
sizes, so it works well on both gasses,
this is not going to be a problem for much longer, as european regulations
are coming in that mean a single regulator set at 30 millibars is now used
on both gasses,
at the moment this is for caravans and motorhomes, and the regulator is
fixed to a wall, and you just connect a short high pressure hose from the
regulator, with the relevent fitting on it for what ever gas bottle you use,

But it wont be long before you can get the 30 millibar regulators that clip
or screw directly onto bottles for camping use, of course in the caravan
industry people are already cashing in on this, claiming that only new
apliances that are set to run on 30 millibars of pressure will ork with the
new regulators!!, which is strange when the old apliances worked fine on
either 28 or 37 millibars.. or anything in-between, but there are always
some people who want to make money, not content with selling a whole new
regulator system, they want you to buy whole new apliances from them too.

of course campin gas is unafected by all this, as it's usually direct
pressure, as the gas is stored at a lower pressure in the can to start with
(but which is also why camping gas apliances become useless when the gas
level drops too much, with a big bottle and regulator you can use almost all
the gas up, as the regulator compensates for pressure differences)


  #8 (permalink)  
Old July 24th 03, 10:12 PM posted to uk.rec.camping
Graham[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 28
Default Question: How much and where to get a gas bottle

"Marc" wrote in message
k...
Graham wrote:


Gas from Homebase, and the regulator from a gas shop.


ROFL!!!


Never heard of Shell Gas?


No ??


Enlighten me ..........

Graham


  #9 (permalink)  
Old July 24th 03, 10:26 PM posted to uk.rec.camping
QrizB
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 95
Default Question: How much and where to get a gas bottle

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 10:54:33 +0000 (UTC), "CampinGazz"
wrote:

"Gaw" wrote in message
news

One question though, given that propane is so good, why use butane at
all? And why do camping shops sell butane by default (without giving
you a choice) even in Spring? - Please don't tell me that it is
because the bottles are the same colour as Camping Gaz.


While most of what CampingGazz says is true, there's a few
misconceptions I'd like to correct.

Propane bottles are the same size as butane bottles, but apparantly hold
less gas, 6 kilo propane bottles are 7 kilo butane bottles,
however propane is stored at a higher pressure than butane, so more liquid
is squeezed into the bottle, so you still get the same amount of gas vapour
on each bottle, just the storage of it in it's liquid form is at different
pressures


This is where I'd take most exception. Propane is stored at higher
pressure because it has a higher vapour pressure - you can't store
liquid propane at any vapour pressure other than that. In both bottles
the bulk of the fuel is liquid, so the "higher pressure" doesn't
affect how much gas is in each. A 6kg propane bottle contains less
fuel than a 7kg butane bottle.

The 6kg of propane will produce 3.27 cubic metres of gas at STP. 7kg
of butane is 3.36 cubic metres of gas. And (as mentioned) the butane
has a higher calorific value, so you need less to make a cup of tea.

of course campin gas is unafected by all this, as it's usually direct
pressure, as the gas is stored at a lower pressure in the can to start with
(but which is also why camping gas apliances become useless when the gas
level drops too much, with a big bottle and regulator you can use almost all
the gas up, as the regulator compensates for pressure differences)


Camping Gaz bottles use regulators too, and the gas pressure inside a
Camping Gaz bottle (that contains liquid butane) is the same as the
gas pressure inside a Calor bottle (that contains liquid butane).


--
QrizB

I sound like I know what I'm talking about, but don't
be fooled.
  #10 (permalink)  
Old July 24th 03, 11:07 PM posted to uk.rec.camping
Phil Cook[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 26
Default Question: How much and where to get a gas bottle

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 21:26:14 GMT, QrizB wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 10:54:33 +0000 (UTC), "CampinGazz"
wrote:

"Gaw" wrote in message
news

One question though, given that propane is so good, why use butane at
all? And why do camping shops sell butane by default (without giving
you a choice) even in Spring? - Please don't tell me that it is
because the bottles are the same colour as Camping Gaz.


Butane is cheaper than Propane because you get more of it from the distilation
process.

snip

A 6kg propane bottle contains less
fuel than a 7kg butane bottle.


Because propane is less dense than butane. They contain the same volume of
liquid gas when full.

The 6kg of propane will produce 3.27 cubic metres of gas at STP. 7kg
of butane is 3.36 cubic metres of gas. And (as mentioned) the butane
has a higher calorific value, so you need less to make a cup of tea.


The reason that butane has a higher calorific value is that it is denser, more
hydrocarbon to burn.

of course campin gas is unafected by all this, as it's usually direct
pressure, as the gas is stored at a lower pressure in the can to start with
(but which is also why camping gas apliances become useless when the gas
level drops too much, with a big bottle and regulator you can use almost all
the gas up, as the regulator compensates for pressure differences)


Camping Gaz bottles use regulators too, and the gas pressure inside a
Camping Gaz bottle (that contains liquid butane) is the same as the
gas pressure inside a Calor bottle (that contains liquid butane).


This applies to the large bottles. I think CGazz when he said "in the can" was
refering to the small cartridges.

The real reason why propane comes into the mix is that it has a lower vapour
point and will go from liqid to gas when the ambient temperature is below zero.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

 



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