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UK Caravanning (uk.rec.caravanning) A forum for the discussion of caravanning undertaken by residents of the United Kingdom, whether in the UK or abroad. It encourages the interchange of views on the merits of models of caravan, makes of tow car, accessories, caravan sites, caravan clubs, and other related topics. The term caravan is to include trailer vans, motor caravans and trailer tents.

Entitlement to tow



 
 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old October 23rd 03, 04:19 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Tony Hayes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 23
Default Entitlement to tow

I didn't know this:

(Extract from DVLA site)

"Drivers who passed a car test on or after 1 January 1997 are required to
pass an additional driving test in order to gain entitlement to category B+E
and all larger vehicles. In addition to the new driving tests, drivers of
vehicles which fall within subcategories C1, C1+E, D1 and D1+E also have to
meet higher medical standards."

Tony

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old October 23rd 03, 05:34 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Budgie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 347
Default Entitlement to tow

"Tony Hayes" wrote in message
t...
|
| "Drivers who passed a car test on or after 1 January 1997 are required to
| pass an additional driving test in order to gain entitlement to category
B+E
| and all larger vehicles. In addition to the new driving tests, drivers of
| vehicles which fall within subcategories C1, C1+E, D1 and D1+E also have
to
| meet higher medical standards."
|

In my case, I have to renew my licence every 3 years on medical grounds. I
had entitlement for up to 7.5tonnes, but as soon as the new-style two-part
licences came in, this was reduced to 3.5tonnes under this rule.

Budgie


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  #3 (permalink)  
Old October 23rd 03, 07:41 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Geoff Lane
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Posts: 870
Default Entitlement to tow

Tony Hayes wrote in
t:

"Drivers who passed a car test on or after 1 January 1997 are required
to pass an additional driving test in order to gain entitlement to
category B+E and all larger vehicles. In addition to the new driving
tests, drivers of vehicles which fall within subcategories C1, C1+E,
D1 and D1+E also have to meet higher medical standards."


Also, the new B+E doesn't give you all that you have with a pre-1997
group B license. Leaving aside C1 and C1E (up to 7.5 tonnes solo and MGTW
of up to 8.25 tonnes), the old group B gives you 3.5 tonnes MAM for the
tug and another 3.5 tonnes for the trailer (i.e. 7 tonnes MGTW); the new
group B+E gives 3.5 tonnes for the tug and a MAM for the combination of
only 4.25 tonnes.

It gets worse because, although the pre-1997 CIE has no restriction on
weight ratio, C1+E doesn't allow the MTPLM of the trailer to exceed the
kerbweight of the tug. So, you would need a full HGV (C+E) license to tow
most 5th wheelers and "travel-trailers". I also understand that you need
C+E for many double horsebox/4x4 combinations because, although the MAM
of the train is within the 12,000kg limit for C1+E, the max gross weight
of the horsebox (e.g. 2584kg for the Ifor Williams HB510) exceeds the
kerbweight of the towcar (e.g. Landrover Discovery V8 at 2280kg).

--
Geoff Lane
Cornwall, UK
  #4 (permalink)  
Old October 27th 03, 12:33 AM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Paul King
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 64
Default Entitlement to tow

"Tony Hayes" wrote in message
t...
I didn't know this:

(Extract from DVLA site)

"Drivers who passed a car test on or after 1 January 1997 are required to
pass an additional driving test in order to gain entitlement to category

B+E
and all larger vehicles. In addition to the new driving tests, drivers of
vehicles which fall within subcategories C1, C1+E, D1 and D1+E also have

to
meet higher medical standards."

Tony


How about this then......
My mate's son is going through his class 2 HGV training (fixed wheelbase
only I think). The cost is over 1000 and STILL doesn't allow him to tow a
caravan! In order for him to do that, he's been told (and I'm not sure
whether someone wasn't taking the P***) that it would be ANOTHER 1000 or
so, because you have to do maneouvering (sp) and other stuff!

If this is true, then at this rate there'll be no 'vanners in 20 years or
so!

Paul



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  #5 (permalink)  
Old October 27th 03, 06:58 AM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Geoff Lane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 870
Default Entitlement to tow

"Paul King" wrote in
:

My mate's son is going through his class 2 HGV training (fixed
wheelbase only I think). The cost is over 1000 and STILL doesn't
allow him to tow a caravan! In order for him to do that, he's been
told (and I'm not sure whether someone wasn't taking the P***) that it
would be ANOTHER 1000 or so, because you have to do maneouvering (sp)
and other stuff!

If this is true, then at this rate there'll be no 'vanners in 20 years
or so!


IMHO, it won't be too long before the big twin-axle 'vans are extinct.
Anyone who got a new car license after 1997 has a gross train MAM of 3.5
tonnes or, with B+E, 4.25 tonnes. Most licenses expire whent he driver
gets to 70 years old. So, the latest that anyone can have "grandfather's
entitlement" is 2049. However, the number of drivers who can tow large
'vans will decrease to make production of them unsustainable well before
then.

Most won't take the B+E test, and so will be limited to a combination MAM
(i.e. the lesser of the car manufacturer's max gross train weight figure
or the MAM of the car plus the MTPLM of the trailer) of 3.5 tonnes only,
which, I suspect, would put many of today's combinations out of reach.

That said, my current outfit (Volvo 850 with 1053 MTPLM caravan) is just
within a group B entitlement. So, your mate's son would be entitled to
drive it without needing C1+E or C+E.

HTH,

--
Geoff Lane
Cornwall, UK
  #6 (permalink)  
Old October 27th 03, 06:44 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
bill lord
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Posts: 317
Default Entitlement to tow

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 07:58:41 GMT, Geoff Lane
wrote:

That said, my current outfit (Volvo 850 with 1053 MTPLM caravan) is just
within a group B entitlement.


What exactly is the group B entitlement, My current outfit is a Volvo
850, which I assured has a kerbweightof 1486kg, and a caravan with a
MTPLM of 1450kg ( I tow at about 1300kg )


(remove the spam to reply)
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old October 27th 03, 09:39 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Geoff Lane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 870
Default Entitlement to tow

bill lord wrote in
:

What exactly is the group B entitlement, My current outfit is a Volvo
850, which I assured has a kerbweightof 1486kg, and a caravan with a
MTPLM of 1450kg ( I tow at about 1300kg )


From the DVLA booklet "D100 - What you need to know about driving
licenses", group B includes, "Combinations of towing vehicles in category
B and a trailer, where the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3500kg
and the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen mass of the towing
vehicle." (MAM is the maximum allowable mass, or max gross weight.)

The MAM of the combination is (AIUI) the lesser of:
- the maximum permitted train weight for the car; or
- the sum of the MAM for the car plus the MTPLM of the trailer. (to get
the MAM for the car, you may need to add the max axle weights).

I have an 850 saloon. I can't remember the exact figures, but when I did
the calculations the max front axle weight + max rear axle weight + MTPLM
of the 'van came to just under the 3,500kg. With a slightly heavier 'van,
the combination would require B+E.

Your 'van is about 400kg more than mine, so the MAM of your outfit is
surely well over the 3,500kg limit for the "new" group B.

Thankfully, I passed my test before 1997. Hopefully, you did too and so
have the benefit of the old limits (up to 8.25 tonnes). If not, I suspect
that you need B+E for your outfit.

HTH,

--
Geoff Lane
Cornwall, UK
  #8 (permalink)  
Old October 27th 03, 10:56 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
bill lord
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 317
Default Entitlement to tow

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:39:47 GMT, Geoff Lane
wrote:

The MAM of the combination is (AIUI) the lesser of:
- the maximum permitted train weight for the car; or
- the sum of the MAM for the car plus the MTPLM of the trailer. (to get
the MAM for the car, you may need to add the max axle weights).


Thankyou for this it is information that I should have kown but
didn't.

I have an 850 saloon. I can't remember the exact figures, but when I did
the calculations the max front axle weight + max rear axle weight + MTPLM
of the 'van came to just under the 3,500kg. With a slightly heavier 'van,
the combination would require B+E.


I suspect you are right, but I can continue towing my outfit for
another 14 years before I have to consider it.

Your 'van is about 400kg more than mine, so the MAM of your outfit is
surely well over the 3,500kg limit for the "new" group B.


I suspect the MAM will be 3600kg which is the max permissable train
weight, I must admit that I do not know the MAM for the car but I
shall be looking tomorrow, but whatever it is it will be the same as
yours as mine is also a saloon.



(remove the spam to reply)
I've taken a vow of poverty, to annoy me send money
  #9 (permalink)  
Old October 28th 03, 11:26 AM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
bill lord
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 317
Default Entitlement to tow

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:39:47 GMT, Geoff Lane
wrote:

I have an 850 saloon. I can't remember the exact figures, but when I did
the calculations the max front axle weight + max rear axle weight + MTPLM
of the 'van came to just under the 3,500kg. With a slightly heavier 'van,
the combination would require B+E.

Your 'van is about 400kg more than mine, so the MAM of your outfit is
surely well over the 3,500kg limit for the "new" group B.


I've checked this morning, the vin plate states a max gross weight for
the vehicle ( an 850 salloon ) of 1860kg, so add in the 1450 kg
caravan this makes 3310 kg so my combination comes in just below the
3500kg limit which means that yours must be well within it.
Surprisingly the toal of the two axle loads is 1920 kg which is
greater than the maximum allowable.



(remove the spam to reply)
I've taken a vow of poverty, to annoy me send money
  #10 (permalink)  
Old October 28th 03, 12:25 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Geoff Lane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 870
Default Entitlement to tow

bill lord wrote in
:

I've checked this morning, the vin plate states a max gross weight for
the vehicle ( an 850 salloon ) of 1860kg, so add in the 1450 kg
caravan this makes 3310 kg so my combination comes in just below the
3500kg limit which means that yours must be well within it.
Surprisingly the toal of the two axle loads is 1920 kg which is
greater than the maximum allowable.


I was working from memory, which is obviously not as reliable as I
thought:-( I couldn't check the VIN plate because my wife is using the
car for a business trip.

That said, the new group B doesn't allow the MTPLM of the trailer to
exceed the kerbweight of the towcar. So, for the 850, that is the
limiting factor and not the 3500kg absolute maximum. For example, if the
car's kerbweight is 1400kg and max gross weight is 1860kg, a new group B
license doesn't let you tow a caravan with MTPLM of 1450kg, even though
the MAM of the combination (at 3260kg) is less than 3500kg.

According to http://www.cuddles.abelgratis.net/volvo.htm#850 (which is
hardly authoritative) the kerbweight can be from 1363kg to 1511kg. So,
depending on the kerbweight of your car, your combination may be outside
the new group B. You certainly wouldn't be able to tow the manufacturer's
1600kg limit. However, that's academic because you have the pre-1997
entitlement.

--
Geoff Lane
Cornwall, UK
 



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