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Parking in Southampton



 
 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old April 8th 04, 03:19 PM posted to uk.rec.motorcaravans
Paul Jerome[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18
Default Parking in Southampton

Could I possibly ask some advice on a legal matter.

I had to get the alarm on our new motorcaravan checked and re-certified by
the original fitter. When he had finished (ever so helpful bloke) I asked
him where I could park for shopping in Southampton. He directed me to the
car park juts past West Quays, by Comet and Carpet world. At the entrance
there was a sign saying 2 hours maximum. No problem I thought. I parked, but
as there was loads of space, I left a couple of feet hanging over the bay
behind. As we left the vehicle and locked, I noticed a car park attendant
make a note on his clipboard. Checking the time I thought. We got back to
the van after just over an hour, to find a parking ticket for 30 under the
windscreen wiper. There was no sign of a parking attendant. I checked round
for a terms and conditions notice board, and there wasn't one.

What chance have I got of fighting this? What I object to is:
It was a free car park, and only half full.
There was no sign on display stating the terms and conditions.
The parking attendant could easily have spoken to me. I would then have
re-parked the vehicle so that it fitted in a single parking space.

--
__

Paul Jerome

Remove takeitout to reply personally.

Jerome Home Page www.jeromes.org

Havant Light Opera http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.jerome/html/hlo.htm

For my real e-mail address, add my Christian name to jeromes.org


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old April 8th 04, 04:33 PM posted to uk.rec.motorcaravans
riccip
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 106
Default Parking in Southampton

"Paul Jerome" wrote:

I had to get the alarm on our new motorcaravan checked and re-certified by
the original fitter. When he had finished (ever so helpful bloke) I asked
him where I could park for shopping in Southampton. He directed me to the
car park juts past West Quays, by Comet and Carpet world. At the entrance
there was a sign saying 2 hours maximum. No problem I thought. I parked, but
as there was loads of space, I left a couple of feet hanging over the bay
behind. As we left the vehicle and locked, I noticed a car park attendant
make a note on his clipboard. Checking the time I thought. We got back to
the van after just over an hour, to find a parking ticket for 30 under the
windscreen wiper. There was no sign of a parking attendant. I checked round
for a terms and conditions notice board, and there wasn't one.

What chance have I got of fighting this? What I object to is:
It was a free car park, and only half full.
There was no sign on display stating the terms and conditions.
The parking attendant could easily have spoken to me. I would then have
re-parked the vehicle so that it fitted in a single parking space.


Well from what you have said they have no case against you. There
are normally no rules about taking two bays in a larger vehicle.
Are you sure it was actually a free car park?

It sounds like an over-zealous jobsworth. Put everything you've
said here in a formal letter of appeal and send it to the address
on your ticket asking what specifically you are being fined for.
They are duty bound to investigate the matter, but don't be
surprised if the attendant tells a pack of lies. Just stick to
your guns and ask by phone for someone superior if you get no
joy.

riccip
  #3 (permalink)  
Old April 8th 04, 04:59 PM posted to uk.rec.motorcaravans
Paul Jerome[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18
Default Parking in Southampton


"riccip" wrote in message
...
"Paul Jerome" wrote:

I had to get the alarm on our new motorcaravan checked and re-certified

by
the original fitter. When he had finished (ever so helpful bloke) I asked
him where I could park for shopping in Southampton. He directed me to the
car park juts past West Quays, by Comet and Carpet world. At the entrance
there was a sign saying 2 hours maximum. No problem I thought. I parked,

but
as there was loads of space, I left a couple of feet hanging over the bay
behind. As we left the vehicle and locked, I noticed a car park attendant
make a note on his clipboard. Checking the time I thought. We got back to
the van after just over an hour, to find a parking ticket for 30 under

the
windscreen wiper. There was no sign of a parking attendant. I checked

round
for a terms and conditions notice board, and there wasn't one.

What chance have I got of fighting this? What I object to is:
It was a free car park, and only half full.
There was no sign on display stating the terms and conditions.
The parking attendant could easily have spoken to me. I would then have
re-parked the vehicle so that it fitted in a single parking space.


Well from what you have said they have no case against you. There
are normally no rules about taking two bays in a larger vehicle.
Are you sure it was actually a free car park?

It sounds like an over-zealous jobsworth. Put everything you've
said here in a formal letter of appeal and send it to the address
on your ticket asking what specifically you are being fined for.
They are duty bound to investigate the matter, but don't be
surprised if the attendant tells a pack of lies. Just stick to
your guns and ask by phone for someone superior if you get no
joy.

riccip


Thanks for your reply. The car park is free for the first 2 hours.

I have already had a reply from head office, and they have referred it to
the area manager.

I have also written to Which motorcaravan. I would not have thought the
local stores would like adverse publicity.

Paul


  #4 (permalink)  
Old April 8th 04, 06:26 PM posted to uk.rec.motorcaravans
Will Cove
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 85
Default Parking in Southampton

riccip wrote in
:

It sounds like an over-zealous jobsworth. Put everything you've
said here in a formal letter of appeal and send it to the address
on your ticket asking what specifically you are being fined for.
They are duty bound to investigate the matter, but don't be
surprised if the attendant tells a pack of lies. Just stick to
your guns and ask by phone for someone superior if you get no
joy.


After the parking ticket fiascos in some parts of the country, I'd want to
know whether there is a "productivity incentive" scheme for the parking
attendants. Allegedly, some over-zealous jobsworths fabricated times and
some even fabricated dates and places. If there is an incentive scheme and
you are vindicated, consider getting the media in on the act.

If you went straight from the alarm center to the car park and were parked
for only an hour, it is likely that you will have the evidence you need to
prove that you are not liable. Hopefully, the alarm fitter can vouch for
the time you left his premises and the time on the parking ticket should
give the other bound for the maximum period you could have parked.

--
Will
  #5 (permalink)  
Old April 8th 04, 08:27 PM posted to uk.rec.motorcaravans
Paul Jerome[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18
Default Parking in Southampton


"Will Cove" wrote in message
...
riccip wrote in
:

It sounds like an over-zealous jobsworth. Put everything you've
said here in a formal letter of appeal and send it to the address
on your ticket asking what specifically you are being fined for.
They are duty bound to investigate the matter, but don't be
surprised if the attendant tells a pack of lies. Just stick to
your guns and ask by phone for someone superior if you get no
joy.


After the parking ticket fiascos in some parts of the country, I'd want to
know whether there is a "productivity incentive" scheme for the parking
attendants. Allegedly, some over-zealous jobsworths fabricated times and
some even fabricated dates and places. If there is an incentive scheme and
you are vindicated, consider getting the media in on the act.

If you went straight from the alarm center to the car park and were parked
for only an hour, it is likely that you will have the evidence you need to
prove that you are not liable. Hopefully, the alarm fitter can vouch for
the time you left his premises and the time on the parking ticket should
give the other bound for the maximum period you could have parked.

--
Will


Unfortunately there is no time on the parking ticket. It was under my
windscreen wiper, and had strict instructions not to pay there, but to pay
by post. There is an option to pay via the website, but that carries a 3.00
surcharge!

The idea of jobsworths on commission was one of the first things that we
thought of.

I have 14 days to pay otherwise I get an additional fine of 20. I think I
will probably have to pay, but it must be worth milking for the publicity. I
am certainly going to write to all the shops that surround the car park, and
Southampton city council.

I did think of trying a DOS attack on their website, but this could backfire
;-)

Paul


  #6 (permalink)  
Old April 8th 04, 09:40 PM posted to uk.rec.motorcaravans
Barleycorn
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 133
Default Parking in Southampton

I use this car park quite regularly, and have always had the impression that
the council are ****ed off that we can park free for two hours, rather than
pay the King's ransom in the nearby West Quay multi-storey. There was a
letter in the Daily Telegraph's motoring section last year from someone who
had been fined for overstaying for a few minutes. The journalist (Honest
John) suggested boycotting places like this, until the council realised that
people only parked to spend money in the local shops, and so they were
'killing the geese that lay the golden eggs'. In reality I presume that
some shabby outfit is on commission to shaft as many people as possible, as
they are on a percentage.
It's all a bloody shame really, as many Hampshire towns seem to have this
narrow minded philosphapy, so encouraging the use of 'out of town' shopping
centres, leaving the traditional town centres to the charity shops. You
would think that they would realise that we park in these car to spend money
in their shops, not to sightsee!

Barleycorn.


  #7 (permalink)  
Old April 9th 04, 04:35 AM posted to uk.rec.motorcaravans
Will Cove
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 85
Default Parking in Southampton

"Paul Jerome" wrote in
news:[email protected]:

Unfortunately there is no time on the parking ticket. It was under my
windscreen wiper, and had strict instructions not to pay there, but to
pay by post. There is an option to pay via the website, but that
carries a 3.00 surcharge!


In that case, I suspect that the parking ticket has been mis-issued and may
not be enforceable. AFAICT, the ticket must record the date and time of the
alleged offence.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...ontentserverte
mplate/dft_index.hcst?n=9861&l=2 details the rules under which authorities
outside London enforce parking.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...age/dft_roads_
027631.pdf gives the details of how they can collect penalty charges. This
document includes:

12.3 To ensure the collection of all information required for a PCN to be
enforced, including the need to satisfy the adjudicator where a case goes
to adjudication, it is recommended that the following details be recorded
on the PCN:
(a) Vehicle registration number.
(b) Make of vehicle.
(c) Color of vehicle.
(d) Detailed location of vehicle.
(e) Contravention code and description of contravention.
(f) Time or times.
(g) Date.
(h) PCN number.
(i) Attendant's number.
(j) Attendant's signature.
For the contravention code it states that if only a code is recorded it is
vital that the PCN includes a pre-printed description of what each
contravention code means. So that may be another thing they've failed to
do.

The parking ticket should also tell you that you have the right of appeal
and tell you how to make representation to the authority and to appeal to
an independent adjudicator.

HTH,

--
Will
  #8 (permalink)  
Old April 9th 04, 09:53 AM posted to uk.rec.motorcaravans
Dave Hardy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 52
Default Parking in Southampton


"Paul Jerome" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

"Will Cove" wrote in message
...
riccip wrote in
:

It sounds like an over-zealous jobsworth. Put everything you've
said here in a formal letter of appeal and send it to the address
on your ticket asking what specifically you are being fined for.
They are duty bound to investigate the matter, but don't be
surprised if the attendant tells a pack of lies. Just stick to
your guns and ask by phone for someone superior if you get no
joy.


After the parking ticket fiascos in some parts of the country, I'd want

to
know whether there is a "productivity incentive" scheme for the parking
attendants. Allegedly, some over-zealous jobsworths fabricated times and
some even fabricated dates and places. If there is an incentive scheme

and
you are vindicated, consider getting the media in on the act.

If you went straight from the alarm center to the car park and were

parked
for only an hour, it is likely that you will have the evidence you need

to
prove that you are not liable. Hopefully, the alarm fitter can vouch for
the time you left his premises and the time on the parking ticket should
give the other bound for the maximum period you could have parked.

--
Will


Unfortunately there is no time on the parking ticket. It was under my
windscreen wiper, and had strict instructions not to pay there, but to pay
by post. There is an option to pay via the website, but that carries a

3.00
surcharge!

The idea of jobsworths on commission was one of the first things that we
thought of.

I have 14 days to pay otherwise I get an additional fine of 20. I think I
will probably have to pay, but it must be worth milking for the publicity.

I
am certainly going to write to all the shops that surround the car park,

and
Southampton city council.

I did think of trying a DOS attack on their website, but this could

backfire
;-)

Paul



In legal terms, you will have entered into a contract with the
landowner/council/whoever for the provision of a service - ie parking your
van on their car park. The contract will be subject to their terms and
conditions, eg payment of a fee, not exceeding a specified weight limit or
parking within a single bay. If you breach those terms, then you will be
liable to a penalty/surcharge. Details of the penalty/surcharge must also
be displayed.

In order for those terms to be legal enforcable, they have to be displayed
in a reasonable position - on a board, on the ticket dispenser machine, on
the reverse of the ticket, so that you can make an informed acceptance.

If neither the car park site nor the penalty notice specifies what the
breach is, then you should simply write to the company asking them. The
onus is on them to show that you have breached their terms and conditions.

Setting out all of your arguments/evidence at this stage would, in my
opinion, cloud the issue. Just keep it simple.







  #9 (permalink)  
Old April 9th 04, 10:19 AM posted to uk.rec.motorcaravans
Paul Jerome[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18
Default Parking in Southampton


"Will Cove" wrote in message
...
"Paul Jerome" wrote in
news:[email protected]:

Unfortunately there is no time on the parking ticket. It was under my
windscreen wiper, and had strict instructions not to pay there, but to
pay by post. There is an option to pay via the website, but that
carries a o3.00 surcharge!


In that case, I suspect that the parking ticket has been mis-issued and

may
not be enforceable. AFAICT, the ticket must record the date and time of

the
alleged offence.


http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...ontentserverte
mplate/dft_index.hcst?n=9861&l=2 details the rules under which authorities
outside London enforce parking.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...age/dft_roads_
027631.pdf gives the details of how they can collect penalty charges. This
document includes:

12.3 To ensure the collection of all information required for a PCN to be
enforced, including the need to satisfy the adjudicator where a case goes
to adjudication, it is recommended that the following details be recorded
on the PCN:
(a) Vehicle registration number.
(b) Make of vehicle.
(c) Color of vehicle.
(d) Detailed location of vehicle.
(e) Contravention code and description of contravention.
(f) Time or times.
(g) Date.
(h) PCN number.
(i) Attendant's number.
(j) Attendant's signature.
For the contravention code it states that if only a code is recorded it is
vital that the PCN includes a pre-printed description of what each
contravention code means. So that may be another thing they've failed to
do.

The parking ticket should also tell you that you have the right of appeal
and tell you how to make representation to the authority and to appeal to
an independent adjudicator.

HTH,

--
Will


Thanks very much for that Will, that is really useful. The ticket has the
time I parked, but not the time I left. I will try the appeals procedure.

Paul


  #10 (permalink)  
Old April 9th 04, 10:21 AM posted to uk.rec.motorcaravans
Paul Jerome[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18
Default Parking in Southampton


"Dave Hardy" wrote in message
...

"Paul Jerome" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

"Will Cove" wrote in message
...
riccip wrote in
:

It sounds like an over-zealous jobsworth. Put everything you've
said here in a formal letter of appeal and send it to the address
on your ticket asking what specifically you are being fined for.
They are duty bound to investigate the matter, but don't be
surprised if the attendant tells a pack of lies. Just stick to
your guns and ask by phone for someone superior if you get no
joy.

After the parking ticket fiascos in some parts of the country, I'd

want
to
know whether there is a "productivity incentive" scheme for the

parking
attendants. Allegedly, some over-zealous jobsworths fabricated times

and
some even fabricated dates and places. If there is an incentive scheme

and
you are vindicated, consider getting the media in on the act.

If you went straight from the alarm center to the car park and were

parked
for only an hour, it is likely that you will have the evidence you

need
to
prove that you are not liable. Hopefully, the alarm fitter can vouch

for
the time you left his premises and the time on the parking ticket

should
give the other bound for the maximum period you could have parked.

--
Will


Unfortunately there is no time on the parking ticket. It was under my
windscreen wiper, and had strict instructions not to pay there, but to

pay
by post. There is an option to pay via the website, but that carries a

3.00
surcharge!

The idea of jobsworths on commission was one of the first things that we
thought of.

I have 14 days to pay otherwise I get an additional fine of 20. I think

I
will probably have to pay, but it must be worth milking for the

publicity.
I
am certainly going to write to all the shops that surround the car park,

and
Southampton city council.

I did think of trying a DOS attack on their website, but this could

backfire
;-)

Paul



In legal terms, you will have entered into a contract with the
landowner/council/whoever for the provision of a service - ie parking your
van on their car park. The contract will be subject to their terms and
conditions, eg payment of a fee, not exceeding a specified weight limit or
parking within a single bay. If you breach those terms, then you will be
liable to a penalty/surcharge. Details of the penalty/surcharge must also
be displayed.

In order for those terms to be legal enforcable, they have to be displayed
in a reasonable position - on a board, on the ticket dispenser machine, on
the reverse of the ticket, so that you can make an informed acceptance.

If neither the car park site nor the penalty notice specifies what the
breach is, then you should simply write to the company asking them. The
onus is on them to show that you have breached their terms and conditions.

Setting out all of your arguments/evidence at this stage would, in my
opinion, cloud the issue. Just keep it simple.



Thanks for your help Dave. As far as I could see, the terms and conditions
were not displayed anywhere.

Paul


 



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