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Any thoughts?



 
 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old July 9th 07, 10:25 AM posted to uk.rec.caravanning,uk.rec.motorcaravans
Robert Peffers.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 60
Default Any thoughts?

Hi,

I'm cross-posting this to uk.rec.motorcaravans.

I am disabled and now run an Auto-sleeper Trooper as my everyday vehicle. I
had it fitted with a small electrically operated hoist to load/unload my
mobility scooter. I also have an old, but good, caravan that has basic
electrics; Old Labcraft TP2 MkV via a 12S plug/socket; 3-way fridge; lights
and a water pump.

Now I am building a trailer to carry the Mobility Scooter and give me more
scope. It will be wired for mains hook-up; will use the old TP2 MkV, have a
mobile cool box and a generator for emergency use only if the scooter needs
charged with no mains available. I can, thus, use the Motor-home as an
everyday vehicle, the motor-home plus the trailer for short stays on sites
and motor-home plus caravan for longer stops on sites.

The problem is this - the Motor-home towbar 12S plug seems to be wired as :-

pin 1 - Reversing light.
pin 2 - Battery +ve, (via relay in car).
pin 3 - Common Earth.
pin 4 - Battery +ve, (no relay control).
pin 5 - Spare.
pin 6 - Fridge, (via relay in car).
pin 7 - Earth Return.

Now, if I understand it correctly, the modern standard should be :-

pin 1 - Reversing Light
pin 2 - Spare.
pin 3 - Return for circuits on pin 4.
pin 4 - Power feed for trailer/caravan battery via relay IN CARAVAN/TRAILER.
pin 5 - Spare.
pin 6 - Refrigerator via relay in car.
pin 7 - Return for circuits on pin 6.

Anyone have thoughts on the best way to go with this one?
I've no problem getting things to work but would like to have some semblance
of modern standardisation.
--

Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).


Ads
  #2 (permalink)  
Old July 9th 07, 11:01 AM posted to uk.rec.caravanning,uk.rec.motorcaravans
Paul - xxx
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,042
Default Any thoughts?

Robert Peffers. wrote:
Hi,

I'm cross-posting this to uk.rec.motorcaravans.

I am disabled and now run an Auto-sleeper Trooper as my everyday
vehicle. I had it fitted with a small electrically operated hoist to
load/unload my mobility scooter. I also have an old, but good,
caravan that has basic electrics; Old Labcraft TP2 MkV via a 12S
plug/socket; 3-way fridge; lights and a water pump.

Now I am building a trailer to carry the Mobility Scooter and give me
more scope. It will be wired for mains hook-up; will use the old TP2
MkV, have a mobile cool box and a generator for emergency use only if
the scooter needs charged with no mains available. I can, thus, use
the Motor-home as an everyday vehicle, the motor-home plus the
trailer for short stays on sites and motor-home plus caravan for
longer stops on sites.
The problem is this - the Motor-home towbar 12S plug seems to be
wired as :-
pin 1 - Reversing light.
pin 2 - Battery +ve, (via relay in car).
pin 3 - Common Earth.
pin 4 - Battery +ve, (no relay control).
pin 5 - Spare.
pin 6 - Fridge, (via relay in car).
pin 7 - Earth Return.

Now, if I understand it correctly, the modern standard should be :-

pin 1 - Reversing Light
pin 2 - Spare.
pin 3 - Return for circuits on pin 4.
pin 4 - Power feed for trailer/caravan battery via relay IN
CARAVAN/TRAILER. pin 5 - Spare.
pin 6 - Refrigerator via relay in car.
pin 7 - Return for circuits on pin 6.

Anyone have thoughts on the best way to go with this one?
I've no problem getting things to work but would like to have some
semblance of modern standardisation.


Personally I'd wire it up as you need it, or as conveniently as suits you.
You're unlikely to be selling it on for a while and as you're the one using
it, why do you need standardisation?

I'd make up a cross-over cable so if something breaks and you need it towing
you can use 'your' sockets with the cross-over/patch cable coupling to the
towing vehicles. OTOH most modern recovery vehicles have their own trailer
boards etc for just this problem ... there are so many different types of
coupling and towing cable used on the roads it'd be impossible for them to
carry enough to suit everything.

--
Paul - xxx


  #3 (permalink)  
Old July 9th 07, 11:35 AM posted to uk.rec.caravanning,uk.rec.motorcaravans
:Jerry:
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 71
Default Any thoughts?


"Paul - xxx" wrote in message
...

snip

Personally I'd wire it up as you need it, or as conveniently as
suits you. You're unlikely to be selling it on for a while and as
you're the one using it, why do you need standardisation?


Recovery or replacement vehicle / caravan, just two reasons why people
should standardise, if you must break with the standard at least keep
the returns (ve-) to the standard layout - unless you like melted
wires and or fires...


I'd make up a cross-over cable so if something breaks and you need
it towing you can use 'your' sockets with the cross-over/patch cable
coupling to the towing vehicles.


Yes, I would go with that if one has to break the standard.

OTOH most modern recovery vehicles have their own trailer
boards etc for just this problem ... there are so many different
types of coupling and towing cable used on the roads it'd be
impossible for them to carry enough to suit everything.


AIUI there are only three couplings, ball and cup [1], eye and pin,
NATO.

[1] yes I know there is the imperial and metric ball and cup, but how
many still use the imperial version?...


  #4 (permalink)  
Old July 9th 07, 11:59 AM posted to uk.rec.caravanning,uk.rec.motorcaravans
Robert Peffers.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 60
Default Any thoughts?


"Paul - xxx" wrote in message
...
Robert Peffers. wrote:
Hi,

I'm cross-posting this to uk.rec.motorcaravans.

I am disabled and now run an Auto-sleeper Trooper as my everyday
vehicle. I had it fitted with a small electrically operated hoist to
load/unload my mobility scooter. I also have an old, but good,
caravan that has basic electrics; Old Labcraft TP2 MkV via a 12S
plug/socket; 3-way fridge; lights and a water pump.

Now I am building a trailer to carry the Mobility Scooter and give me
more scope. It will be wired for mains hook-up; will use the old TP2
MkV, have a mobile cool box and a generator for emergency use only if
the scooter needs charged with no mains available. I can, thus, use
the Motor-home as an everyday vehicle, the motor-home plus the
trailer for short stays on sites and motor-home plus caravan for
longer stops on sites.
The problem is this - the Motor-home towbar 12S plug seems to be
wired as :-
pin 1 - Reversing light.
pin 2 - Battery +ve, (via relay in car).
pin 3 - Common Earth.
pin 4 - Battery +ve, (no relay control).
pin 5 - Spare.
pin 6 - Fridge, (via relay in car).
pin 7 - Earth Return.

Now, if I understand it correctly, the modern standard should be :-

pin 1 - Reversing Light
pin 2 - Spare.
pin 3 - Return for circuits on pin 4.
pin 4 - Power feed for trailer/caravan battery via relay IN
CARAVAN/TRAILER. pin 5 - Spare.
pin 6 - Refrigerator via relay in car.
pin 7 - Return for circuits on pin 6.

Anyone have thoughts on the best way to go with this one?
I've no problem getting things to work but would like to have some
semblance of modern standardisation.


Personally I'd wire it up as you need it, or as conveniently as suits you.
You're unlikely to be selling it on for a while and as you're the one
using it, why do you need standardisation?

I'd make up a cross-over cable so if something breaks and you need it
towing you can use 'your' sockets with the cross-over/patch cable coupling
to the towing vehicles. OTOH most modern recovery vehicles have their own
trailer boards etc for just this problem ... there are so many different
types of coupling and towing cable used on the roads it'd be impossible
for them to carry enough to suit everything.

--
Paul - xxx

Thank you and indeed, you are probably right - I had just hoped some sort of
standard had been arrived at by the caravanning/motor-homing community.

However, the thing that bothers me is the new towbar on the Motor-home seems
to fall between the two standards. If I've got it right, in the pre-1999
set-up, pin 7 on the 12S socket was a spare but is now the fridge return and
pin 4 was a direct, no relay, feed to the caravan but it is now supposed to
have a relay fitted in the caravan/trailer. In that case there would be no
problem for the TP2 box would act as the caravan/trailer relay. The cool-box
would be on the fridge circuit in both caravan and trailer so there would be
no problems there either. I'm not really in favour of generator use on site
but with the need for the mobility buggy I do need the emergency back-up.

The old caravan has a good modern mains hook-up unit but there seems nothing
except the old Trailer Pack and a couple of choc-block connector strips for
the 12 volt system. I have the circuit diagram for the TP2 and the unit
still works quite well. If I were to do away with the TP2 I would need to
fit both the caravan and the trailer with a 12 volt system including
charging systems. The other benefit of the TP2 is that I can charge the
built in battery from the mains, the generator or the vehicles alternator
and it is not too much bother to move it between the car and or
caravan/trailer.
--

Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).



  #5 (permalink)  
Old July 9th 07, 05:09 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning,uk.rec.motorcaravans
Roger Mills
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 418
Default Any thoughts?

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Robert Peffers. wrote:

Hi,

I'm cross-posting this to uk.rec.motorcaravans.

I am disabled and now run an Auto-sleeper Trooper as my everyday
vehicle. I had it fitted with a small electrically operated hoist to
load/unload my mobility scooter. I also have an old, but good,
caravan that has basic electrics; Old Labcraft TP2 MkV via a 12S
plug/socket; 3-way fridge; lights and a water pump.

Now I am building a trailer to carry the Mobility Scooter and give me
more scope. It will be wired for mains hook-up; will use the old TP2
MkV, have a mobile cool box and a generator for emergency use only if
the scooter needs charged with no mains available. I can, thus, use
the Motor-home as an everyday vehicle, the motor-home plus the
trailer for short stays on sites and motor-home plus caravan for
longer stops on sites.
The problem is this - the Motor-home towbar 12S plug seems to be
wired as :-
pin 1 - Reversing light.
pin 2 - Battery +ve, (via relay in car).
pin 3 - Common Earth.
pin 4 - Battery +ve, (no relay control).
pin 5 - Spare.
pin 6 - Fridge, (via relay in car).
pin 7 - Earth Return.

Now, if I understand it correctly, the modern standard should be :-

pin 1 - Reversing Light
pin 2 - Spare.
pin 3 - Return for circuits on pin 4.
pin 4 - Power feed for trailer/caravan battery via relay IN
CARAVAN/TRAILER. pin 5 - Spare.
pin 6 - Refrigerator via relay in car.
pin 7 - Return for circuits on pin 6.

Anyone have thoughts on the best way to go with this one?
I've no problem getting things to work but would like to have some
semblance of modern standardisation.


If you currently have a setup which works ok with the caravan, make the
trailer mimic that, so that trailer and caravan are interchangeable. The
only concession I would make to the modern 'standard' is to separate the
fridge earth from other circuits, and use Pin 7 on the 12S for it.

If you ever buy a post-98 caravan with an internal relay to toggle Pin 4
between permanent live and battery charging, you can modify everything else
to suit *then*.

I wouldn't worry too much about recovery vehicle wiring. They'll probably
only connect the 12N anyway, to make the road lighting legal. The spec for
that hasn't changed since 1979!

Many different wiring variations are in use for 12S plugs/sockets. Even if
you make your setup comply with the latest spec, thousands of towcars and
caravans will still be different.

The Caravan Club has produced quite a good document on trailer wiring - see
http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/nr/rdon...wbarwiring.pdf

[Not sure whether you have to be logged on as a member to access it -
apologies if you do!]
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!


  #6 (permalink)  
Old July 9th 07, 10:31 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning,uk.rec.motorcaravans
Harry Bloomfield
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 582
Default Any thoughts?

Paul - xxx explained on 09/07/2007 :
OTOH most modern recovery vehicles have their own trailer boards etc for just
this problem ... there are so many different types of coupling and towing
cable used on the roads it'd be impossible for them to carry enough to suit
everything.


The trailer board plugs into a 12N for the basic road lights, the
socket under discussion is the 12S the supplementary. I don't think
breakdown vehicles are usually fitted with a 12S.

--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk


  #7 (permalink)  
Old July 9th 07, 11:31 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning,uk.rec.motorcaravans
Robert Peffers.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 60
Default Any thoughts?


"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Robert Peffers. wrote:

Hi,

I'm cross-posting this to uk.rec.motorcaravans.

I am disabled and now run an Auto-sleeper Trooper as my everyday
vehicle. I had it fitted with a small electrically operated hoist to
load/unload my mobility scooter. I also have an old, but good,
caravan that has basic electrics; Old Labcraft TP2 MkV via a 12S
plug/socket; 3-way fridge; lights and a water pump.

Now I am building a trailer to carry the Mobility Scooter and give me
more scope. It will be wired for mains hook-up; will use the old TP2
MkV, have a mobile cool box and a generator for emergency use only if
the scooter needs charged with no mains available. I can, thus, use
the Motor-home as an everyday vehicle, the motor-home plus the
trailer for short stays on sites and motor-home plus caravan for
longer stops on sites.
The problem is this - the Motor-home towbar 12S plug seems to be
wired as :-
pin 1 - Reversing light.
pin 2 - Battery +ve, (via relay in car).
pin 3 - Common Earth.
pin 4 - Battery +ve, (no relay control).
pin 5 - Spare.
pin 6 - Fridge, (via relay in car).
pin 7 - Earth Return.

Now, if I understand it correctly, the modern standard should be :-

pin 1 - Reversing Light
pin 2 - Spare.
pin 3 - Return for circuits on pin 4.
pin 4 - Power feed for trailer/caravan battery via relay IN
CARAVAN/TRAILER. pin 5 - Spare.
pin 6 - Refrigerator via relay in car.
pin 7 - Return for circuits on pin 6.

Anyone have thoughts on the best way to go with this one?
I've no problem getting things to work but would like to have some
semblance of modern standardisation.


If you currently have a setup which works ok with the caravan, make the
trailer mimic that, so that trailer and caravan are interchangeable. The
only concession I would make to the modern 'standard' is to separate the
fridge earth from other circuits, and use Pin 7 on the 12S for it.

If you ever buy a post-98 caravan with an internal relay to toggle Pin 4
between permanent live and battery charging, you can modify everything
else to suit *then*.

I wouldn't worry too much about recovery vehicle wiring. They'll probably
only connect the 12N anyway, to make the road lighting legal. The spec for
that hasn't changed since 1979!

Many different wiring variations are in use for 12S plugs/sockets. Even if
you make your setup comply with the latest spec, thousands of towcars and
caravans will still be different.

The Caravan Club has produced quite a good document on trailer wiring -
see
http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/nr/rdon...wbarwiring.pdf

[Not sure whether you have to be logged on as a member to access it -
apologies if you do!]
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

Thank you for that link - you do not require to log-in and it explained
things very well.
I think I should leave the motor-home tow-bar circuit as is, wire the
trailer to suit and change the caravan 12S to comply with the trailer.

While the caravan electrics worked well they are rather out of date now and
I have never really liked the lack of a control panel and circuit breaker
box.

By luck the caravan will be easy to redo. I can keep the choc-blocks but
remove the in-line fuses and wire the connection to a control panel/breaker
box in the under-seat locker. There is room there too for a battery but I
may just retain the TP2 Mk V as both the mains and car battery charger.
--

Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).


  #8 (permalink)  
Old July 10th 07, 12:01 AM posted to uk.rec.caravanning,uk.rec.motorcaravans
Robert Peffers.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 60
Default Any thoughts?


"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
...
Paul - xxx explained on 09/07/2007 :
OTOH most modern recovery vehicles have their own trailer boards etc for
just this problem ... there are so many different types of coupling and
towing cable used on the roads it'd be impossible for them to carry
enough to suit everything.


The trailer board plugs into a 12N for the basic road lights, the socket
under discussion is the 12S the supplementary. I don't think breakdown
vehicles are usually fitted with a 12S.

--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk


The trailer is new and came with the 12N system pre-wired. I'm doing the
structural work on the trailer myself. and I've built a wood/MDF top on it.
I'm now fitting it out with a generator, (emergency use only), a mains
hook-up, portable fridge/freezer and the old TP2 Mk V trailer pack that
charges an internal battery from either the mains or from the tow-car. The
trailer will also take my mobility scooter that has a dedicated 24 volt
charger usually run on mains or from an inverter in the motor-home that will
be the tow-vehicle. This is the reason for the trailer as there is no way to
use the wee motor-home as living quarters with the mobility scooter stuck in
the middle of the living space. It is also the reason to carry a genny for
emergency use for I would be really stuck if I could not charge the
scooter's batter pack. So far the inverter system has done the job well but
I would doubt the motor-home's battery would not stand up to providing both
normal living requirements and the scooter recharging if I had no mains
available. The same applies to using the caravan as living space and keeping
the motor-home as tow-car and scooter transporter only. I may even save my
pennies and fit a Solar panel on the trailer and/or caravan top. The
motor-home has a pop-up roof so is not really suitable for a solar panel. I
am determined to get back to touring again - I have been anchored at home
for far too long.

Anyway, thanks folks for your help, my old Gran had a saying -

The butterfly has wings of gold,
The firefly wings of flame,
The poor wee flea, has none at all
- but he gets there just the same.

Well, I'm just like the poor wee flea, I'm now disabled and quite slow - but
I get there just the same.

--

Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).


  #9 (permalink)  
Old July 10th 07, 12:30 AM posted to uk.rec.caravanning,uk.rec.motorcaravans
Robert Peffers.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 60
Default Any thoughts?


"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Robert Peffers. wrote:

Hi,

I'm cross-posting this to uk.rec.motorcaravans.

I am disabled and now run an Auto-sleeper Trooper as my everyday
vehicle. I had it fitted with a small electrically operated hoist to
load/unload my mobility scooter. I also have an old, but good,
caravan that has basic electrics; Old Labcraft TP2 MkV via a 12S
plug/socket; 3-way fridge; lights and a water pump.

Now I am building a trailer to carry the Mobility Scooter and give me
more scope. It will be wired for mains hook-up; will use the old TP2
MkV, have a mobile cool box and a generator for emergency use only if
the scooter needs charged with no mains available. I can, thus, use
the Motor-home as an everyday vehicle, the motor-home plus the
trailer for short stays on sites and motor-home plus caravan for
longer stops on sites.
The problem is this - the Motor-home towbar 12S plug seems to be
wired as :-
pin 1 - Reversing light.
pin 2 - Battery +ve, (via relay in car).
pin 3 - Common Earth.
pin 4 - Battery +ve, (no relay control).
pin 5 - Spare.
pin 6 - Fridge, (via relay in car).
pin 7 - Earth Return.

Now, if I understand it correctly, the modern standard should be :-

pin 1 - Reversing Light
pin 2 - Spare.
pin 3 - Return for circuits on pin 4.
pin 4 - Power feed for trailer/caravan battery via relay IN
CARAVAN/TRAILER. pin 5 - Spare.
pin 6 - Refrigerator via relay in car.
pin 7 - Return for circuits on pin 6.

Anyone have thoughts on the best way to go with this one?
I've no problem getting things to work but would like to have some
semblance of modern standardisation.


If you currently have a setup which works ok with the caravan, make the
trailer mimic that, so that trailer and caravan are interchangeable.

The thing is that the caravan is quite basic for 12 Volts. There are no
switches or control panels. There is just a switch on the water pump with
the fridge also switched at the actual unit. The central heating is also
controlled by a switch on the thermostatic control. There are inline fuses
from choc-block connectors under a cover in an under-seat locker. The
motor-home that will be the tow-car is new and I only recently had the
double socket and tow-bar fitted to it.
only concession I would make to the modern 'standard' is to separate the
fridge earth from other circuits, and use Pin 7 on the 12S for it.


I had intended to wire the caravan to suit the trailer circuits and to fit
some form of control panel/fuse box in place of the choc-block connectors.

If you ever buy a post-98 caravan with an internal relay to toggle Pin 4
between permanent live and battery charging, you can modify everything
else to suit *then*.

I wouldn't worry too much about recovery vehicle wiring. They'll probably
only connect the 12N anyway, to make the road lighting legal. The spec for
that hasn't changed since 1979!

Many different wiring variations are in use for 12S plugs/sockets. Even if
you make your setup comply with the latest spec, thousands of towcars and
caravans will still be different.

The Caravan Club has produced quite a good document on trailer wiring -
see
http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/nr/rdon...wbarwiring.pdf

[Not sure whether you have to be logged on as a member to access it -
apologies if you do!]
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

I thought I had already answered this post but now find it on my computer
desktop.
So thank you for the link - it explains things rather well, (I did not need
to log in and have bookmarked it for the future).
--

Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).


  #10 (permalink)  
Old July 12th 07, 12:14 AM posted to uk.rec.caravanning,uk.rec.motorcaravans
Robert Peffers.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 60
Default Any thoughts?


"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Bobby wrote:

On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 10:25:35 +0100, "Robert Peffers."
wrote:

I am disabled


Who cares?

Take your own life, you worthless parasite.



Your advice is far more applicable to yourself than to the OP!
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

Just in case it makes any difference to the idiot - I worked for over 50
years in the service of my country. I paid my NI stamp and my income tax for
every week of those 50 odd years. I also paid for the pension I now live on.
Furthermore, the reason I am now disabled was due to being hit by a drunk
driver.

By the way, I am buying the equipment for that little trailer with my own
money and building the thing myself in order to do volunteer work in Homes,
Hospitals and Hospices.
I wonder if that idiot can boast of as good a record or if some of my tax
and NI contributions have ever funded him/her/it?
--

Robert Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).


 



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