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12v TV



 
 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old May 23rd 09, 04:10 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Tom[_10_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 27
Default 12v TV

I recently bought a new 16" flat screen TV to use in the caravan. The TV
uses a 240v to 12v 4.lamp 50w transformer which gets exceedingly hot and I
am not happy with the heat generated. Can I run the TV from one of the 12v
sockets in the van whilst the van is connected to the mains recharging the
battery. I do not want to run the TV just from the battery , if the TV will
work that way, as I understand the battery will be flat in no time. I do not
have a user manual and the suppliers of the TV are not any help. Any replies
appreciated...Thanks

Ads
  #2 (permalink)  
Old May 23rd 09, 04:55 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Dougal
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 524
Default 12v TV

Tom wrote:
I recently bought a new 16" flat screen TV to use in the caravan. The TV
uses a 240v to 12v 4.lamp 50w transformer which gets exceedingly hot
and I am not happy with the heat generated. Can I run the TV from one of
the 12v sockets in the van whilst the van is connected to the mains
recharging the battery. I do not want to run the TV just from the
battery , if the TV will work that way, as I understand the battery will
be flat in no time. I do not have a user manual and the suppliers of the
TV are not any help. Any replies appreciated...Thanks


You, firstly, need to determine if the TV's 'transformer' is outputting
DC or AC. Read the label.

If AC, the TV won't run off the caravan's 12V DC supply anyway.

If DC you'll be generating extra heat in the caravan's battery charger
instead of the TV's 'transformer' so what are you gaining other than
less clutter? However, the caravan's system should have been designed to
allow you to use the 12V sockets (even when charging the battery) or
they aren't worth having. The caravan manual should guide you as to what
current is available and it's probably limited by a fuse. Taking 4A for
the TV isn't much but, as you say, is a fair drain on a battery that
isn't being charged.
  #3 (permalink)  
Old May 23rd 09, 07:29 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Woody[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 146
Default 12v TV

"Dougal" DougalAThiskennel.free-online.co.uk wrote in message
. uk...
Tom wrote:
I recently bought a new 16" flat screen TV to use in the
caravan. The TV uses a 240v to 12v 4.lamp 50w transformer
which gets exceedingly hot and I am not happy with the heat
generated. Can I run the TV from one of the 12v sockets in the
van whilst the van is connected to the mains recharging the
battery. I do not want to run the TV just from the battery ,
if the TV will work that way, as I understand the battery will
be flat in no time. I do not have a user manual and the
suppliers of the TV are not any help. Any replies
appreciated...Thanks


You, firstly, need to determine if the TV's 'transformer' is
outputting DC or AC. Read the label.

If AC, the TV won't run off the caravan's 12V DC supply anyway.

If DC you'll be generating extra heat in the caravan's battery
charger instead of the TV's 'transformer' so what are you
gaining other than less clutter? However, the caravan's system
should have been designed to allow you to use the 12V sockets
(even when charging the battery) or they aren't worth having.
The caravan manual should guide you as to what current is
available and it's probably limited by a fuse. Taking 4A for
the TV isn't much but, as you say, is a fair drain on a battery
that isn't being charged.




First off, if the PSU supplied with the TV is running hot (warm
to be expected but not 'hot') then I would take it back to the
supplier and reject it as unfit for purpose. Comparison with
another from the same model of TV should show whether the PSU or
the TV is at fault. You will getting backing from Trading
Standards if necessary.

If you get no-where with that line (and I'll be very surprised if
you don't) then consider buying a 5A switched mode plugtop PSU.
They are readily available but may not be cheap.

Finally use the caravan supply. The 12V socket will probably be
fused 10A (look in the 'van handbook) but check that the cables
are up to the job. Manufacturers always cut corners where they
can and often the cable is too thin. If it is thin then consider
making up a suitable cable your self and connecting directly to
the output of the van PSU.

Have a look at
http://www.digidave.co.uk/jshop/prod...sEZgodPV uc1g
or
http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?...FQJgZwodVVet3A


--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com


  #4 (permalink)  
Old May 23rd 09, 11:02 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
hugh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,616
Default 12v TV

In message , Tom
writes
I recently bought a new 16" flat screen TV to use in the caravan. The
TV uses a 240v to 12v 4.lamp 50w transformer which gets exceedingly
hot and I am not happy with the heat generated. Can I run the TV from
one of the 12v sockets in the van whilst the van is connected to the
mains recharging the battery. I do not want to run the TV just from the
battery , if the TV will work that way, as I understand the battery
will be flat in no time. I do not have a user manual and the suppliers
of the TV are not any help. Any replies appreciated...Thanks

Is this a standard domestic TV? If so then it will be designed for 12v
input and the 13.8 volt (or thereabouts) from your caravan PSU will
probably destroy it. You can get a voltage stabiliser from Maplins which
will get over the problem.

This is one reason why 12v TVs specifically for caravans are generally
bit more expensive. My Avtex 15" is quite happy on the caravan 12v
supply.
--
hugh
It may be more complicated but is it better?

  #5 (permalink)  
Old May 24th 09, 06:49 AM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Tom[_10_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 27
Default 12v TV

"Tom" wrote in message
...
I recently bought a new 16" flat screen TV to use in the caravan. The TV
uses a 240v to 12v 4.lamp 50w transformer which gets exceedingly hot and
I am not happy with the heat generated. Can I run the TV from one of the
12v sockets in the van whilst the van is connected to the mains recharging
the battery. I do not want to run the TV just from the battery , if the TV
will work that way, as I understand the battery will be flat in no time. I
do not have a user manual and the suppliers of the TV are not any help. Any
replies appreciated...Thanks




Thank you for your replies.

The TV is a domestic one and the reason I bought it was because it said 12v
power supply on the box and I bought it specifically for the caravan. My
original TV a 12v or 240v was specific for Caravans, Boats etc and was
nearly three times the cost (without freeview and satellite). With the
arrival of flat screens and digital TV Made me upgrade as it were and I saw
a cheaper option in the domestic TV even with the hassle of sorting it out.

To answer earlier replies the TV does have a 12v DC input and I take the
point about heavier cables and being fused. The present 240/12v set up is
bulky with a digibox, extra wiring as well, as the transformer getting hot.
The transformer says on its label "keep well ventilated" for that reason.

As previously stated The TV runs perfectly well from the 240/12v setup but I
have added a digit-box, rewired the 12v plug within the van and added an
Analog and digital aerial point to the underside of the front left locker of
the van (above the front windows). From the front bulkhead I have suspended
the TV using a bracket from under the lockers in the middle over the center
floor drawer unit. Being high the TV does not obstruct the view nor do I
have cables all over the place as they are all in the corner of the locker
and I have added benefits of extra work space with the TV in a place out of
the way, no sun to get in the way whilst viewing together with being able to
sit with your back, against the solid cupboards with your feet up, passers
by do not see you sat watching TV and not having to store the TV away each
trip. Because the wiring is in the locker I have the possible problem with
the PSU not being ventilated to keep it cooler - ideally I would like to do
away with it. This is the reason for my original posting.

I need never to touch the TV again except for turning it on, lining up the
dish, learning how to use the remotes and until I get the TV running using
12v keeping my eye on the PSU.

Anyone trying this should be very aware of the viewing angle that some flat
screen TV's are being watched from - on some sets it is critical.


  #6 (permalink)  
Old May 24th 09, 11:21 AM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
gazz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16
Default 12v TV

"Tom" wrote in message
...

The TV is a domestic one and the reason I bought it was because it said
12v power supply on the box and I bought it specifically for the caravan.


what was being pointed out is that the mains power supply outpts 12 volts...
usually 12.3 volt actuall, but it dosent put out a millivolt extra,

hence the TV's components are made using the lowest tollerance parts
available, no need to use more expensive higher voltage parts when the TV
will never see more than 12.3 volts.

as a fair few people found out tho, plugging it into the caravans battery
directly... it's on when on battery alone, highest voltage will be 12.8 and
dropping, but connect the charger and the TV will be getting upto 14.8 volts
(depending on charger) a lead acid battery dosent start to charge below 13.8
volts, so even if you had a really naff charger, your putting 1.5 volts more
than the Tv was designed to work on, not to mention all the spikes, hash,
noise etc on the line from the charger, water pump switching etc.

the thing that goes is the backlight inverter, little puff of smoke and you
get no picture, the picture is there, but cant be seen due to ne
backlighting,

the flat screen tv makers are wise to backlight inverter faliurs caused by
overvoltage now, and reject a warrenty claim when they see the components
have failed in the way they usually do when someone runs them on a
caravan/motorhome 12 volt supply.

For about 40 you can get a DC to DC converter, i have one that protects my
Tv, dvd and sat boxes, takes from 10 to 18 volts in and all the rubbish on
the line, and outputs exactly 12.3 volts of pure clean power, got all sorts
of electronic protection in it, unplug the dvd player and it'll shut down
due to the tiny spark you get then unplugging it, that's how sensative it
is,
i have a large solar array on my vans roof, and it does an equalizing charge
every month, takes the batteries upto 16 volts for a few hours to balance
them all out and stir up the cells, my Tv would have let the magic smoke out
first time it did that for sure.

mines rates at 8 amps, and runs cool as a cucumber, but any DC-DC converter
will as it's not having to chop the voltage down from 230 to 12, which is
how switched mode psu's work, the excess voltage/current is the heat you get
in the power brick, i imagine your TV's power brick is rated for 50 watts,
the tv can pull 50 watts, hence it gets hot, find a 100 watt power brick and
it'll run cooler.

  #7 (permalink)  
Old May 24th 09, 06:00 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Tom[_10_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 27
Default 12v TV

"gazz" wrote in message
...
"Tom" wrote in message
...

The TV is a domestic one and the reason I bought it was because it said
12v power supply on the box and I bought it specifically for the caravan.


what was being pointed out is that the mains power supply outpts 12
volts... usually 12.3 volt actuall, but it dosent put out a millivolt
extra,

hence the TV's components are made using the lowest tollerance parts
available, no need to use more expensive higher voltage parts when the TV
will never see more than 12.3 volts.

as a fair few people found out tho, plugging it into the caravans battery
directly... it's on when on battery alone, highest voltage will be 12.8
and dropping, but connect the charger and the TV will be getting upto 14.8
volts (depending on charger) a lead acid battery dosent start to charge
below 13.8 volts, so even if you had a really naff charger, your putting
1.5 volts more than the Tv was designed to work on, not to mention all the
spikes, hash, noise etc on the line from the charger, water pump switching
etc.

the thing that goes is the backlight inverter, little puff of smoke and
you get no picture, the picture is there, but cant be seen due to ne
backlighting,

the flat screen tv makers are wise to backlight inverter faliurs caused by
overvoltage now, and reject a warrenty claim when they see the components
have failed in the way they usually do when someone runs them on a
caravan/motorhome 12 volt supply.

For about 40 you can get a DC to DC converter, i have one that protects
my Tv, dvd and sat boxes, takes from 10 to 18 volts in and all the rubbish
on the line, and outputs exactly 12.3 volts of pure clean power, got all
sorts of electronic protection in it, unplug the dvd player and it'll shut
down due to the tiny spark you get then unplugging it, that's how
sensative it is,
i have a large solar array on my vans roof, and it does an equalizing
charge every month, takes the batteries upto 16 volts for a few hours to
balance them all out and stir up the cells, my Tv would have let the magic
smoke out first time it did that for sure.

mines rates at 8 amps, and runs cool as a cucumber, but any DC-DC
converter will as it's not having to chop the voltage down from 230 to 12,
which is how switched mode psu's work, the excess voltage/current is the
heat you get in the power brick, i imagine your TV's power brick is rated
for 50 watts, the tv can pull 50 watts, hence it gets hot, find a 100 watt
power brick and it'll run cooler.


Now I am learning - Going to Maplins next week will take on board what you
say and ask all the right questions......From what you say I think the best
route would be 100w PSU...........Thanks for that.

  #8 (permalink)  
Old May 24th 09, 06:37 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Woody[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 146
Default 12v TV

"gazz" wrote in message
...
"Tom" wrote in message
...

The TV is a domestic one and the reason I bought it was
because it said 12v power supply on the box and I bought it
specifically for the caravan.


what was being pointed out is that the mains power supply
outpts 12 volts... usually 12.3 volt actuall, but it dosent put
out a millivolt extra,

hence the TV's components are made using the lowest tollerance
parts available, no need to use more expensive higher voltage
parts when the TV will never see more than 12.3 volts.

as a fair few people found out tho, plugging it into the
caravans battery directly... it's on when on battery alone,
highest voltage will be 12.8 and dropping, but connect the
charger and the TV will be getting upto 14.8 volts (depending
on charger) a lead acid battery dosent start to charge below
13.8 volts, so even if you had a really naff charger, your
putting 1.5 volts more than the Tv was designed to work on, not
to mention all the spikes, hash, noise etc on the line from the
charger, water pump switching etc.

the thing that goes is the backlight inverter, little puff of
smoke and you get no picture, the picture is there, but cant be
seen due to ne backlighting,

the flat screen tv makers are wise to backlight inverter
faliurs caused by overvoltage now, and reject a warrenty claim
when they see the components have failed in the way they
usually do when someone runs them on a caravan/motorhome 12
volt supply.

For about 40 you can get a DC to DC converter, i have one that
protects my Tv, dvd and sat boxes, takes from 10 to 18 volts in
and all the rubbish on the line, and outputs exactly 12.3 volts
of pure clean power, got all sorts of electronic protection in
it, unplug the dvd player and it'll shut down due to the tiny
spark you get then unplugging it, that's how sensative it is,
i have a large solar array on my vans roof, and it does an
equalizing charge every month, takes the batteries upto 16
volts for a few hours to balance them all out and stir up the
cells, my Tv would have let the magic smoke out first time it
did that for sure.

mines rates at 8 amps, and runs cool as a cucumber, but any
DC-DC converter will as it's not having to chop the voltage
down from 230 to 12, which is how switched mode psu's work, the
excess voltage/current is the heat you get in the power brick,
i imagine your TV's power brick is rated for 50 watts, the tv
can pull 50 watts, hence it gets hot, find a 100 watt power
brick and it'll run cooler.



Oh dear. With respect, if you don't fully understand it don't
pontificate.

First, a lead acid battery will charge if the incoming supply is
higher than its quiescent plate voltage. A fully charged battery
will provide 2.2V per cell or 13.2V unloaded. The bit about 13.8V
(or 2.3Vpc) is the point at which a battery will start to gas, so
if you charge it at, say, 13.5V, whilst it will not make full
charge it won't gas either - which must be safer.

In a car the alternator output is regulated at 14.4V or 2.4Vpc.
It matters not in such a situation if the battery is gassing as
the engine bay is open to the outside and the gas will disperse
quite easily. Not the same in a gas box on a caravan, hence
caravan PSUs (which incidentally are these days almost all
switched mode) are usually set at 13.8V or slightly less.

In respect of the TV, it would be useful to look at what it says
on the set about supply volts, not on the PSU. I would be very
surprised if the TV is not rated at 12-15V. I would also doubt
the PSU will be linear as the regulation of the transformer would
require it to be large and heavy and have a fairly large heatsink
on the regulator to dissipate the heat generated by the high
transformer output voltage that would be necessary. (Have you
ever looked at the size of a 5A regulated PSU for CB or similar
users?) The PSU will almost certainly be switched mode which
means it should run pretty well cold. If it is getting hot as
described by the OP then it is almost certainly faulty. It
shouldn't matter a jot whether it is rated 5A or 10A - it should
neither get hot nor get any hotter if the load is greater. It
would have been useful to know if the supply was getting hot when
not connected to the TV.

A SMPS doesn't quite work in the way to which you allude. The
incoming mains is rectified to d.c. and then chopped at high
frequency by a power transistor to feed a conventional
transformer. When hard on or hard off transistors dissipate
almost no heat, they only get hot when there is a voltage drop
across them as in a linear regulator.

Because of the high frequency the transformer losses are much
less and it is much more efficient so can be very small. In a
well designed supply there is a feedback circuit between the
input switching side and the output so that the secondary voltage
of the transformer (after rectification and smoothing) only
provides just enough headroom to keep the (linear) output
regulator working. The regulator thence will dissipate very
little heat and the whole unit will be barely tepid to touch. If
it is getting hot, as the OP described, then it is either a very
poorly designed SMPS, or it is faulty.

I would suggest that any manufacturer making something to work
from 12V must assume that it will at some point be used on a
battery supply, ergo it must be safe to run off at least 13.2V if
not 13.8V (which is, by default, the output voltage to which most
nominal 12V supplies are set.) I would however agree that the 12V
supply of a caravan - unless it is taken directly from the
battery - can be quite dirty with some horrible spikes, so some
sort of protection is a good idea. A small choke in series with a
following capacitor in parallel will remove the spikes but as the
battery is in effect a huge capacitor, direction connection is
the best bet.

If you want to spend money then a 12V isolating switching
regulator is the best bet. Those by Alfatronix (of Poole) are not
only well made but also carry a lifetime warranty, so if it goes
wrong they swap if f.o.c. They are very widely used in the
mobile radio industry to run radios in buses, trains, trams,
etc - and they run COLD.


--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com


  #9 (permalink)  
Old May 24th 09, 07:28 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Tom[_10_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 27
Default 12v TV


"Woody" wrote in message
...
"gazz" wrote in message
...
"Tom" wrote in message
...

The TV is a domestic one and the reason I bought it was because it said
12v power supply on the box and I bought it specifically for the
caravan.


what was being pointed out is that the mains power supply outpts 12
volts... usually 12.3 volt actuall, but it dosent put out a millivolt
extra,

hence the TV's components are made using the lowest tollerance parts
available, no need to use more expensive higher voltage parts when the TV
will never see more than 12.3 volts.

as a fair few people found out tho, plugging it into the caravans battery
directly... it's on when on battery alone, highest voltage will be 12.8
and dropping, but connect the charger and the TV will be getting upto
14.8 volts (depending on charger) a lead acid battery dosent start to
charge below 13.8 volts, so even if you had a really naff charger, your
putting 1.5 volts more than the Tv was designed to work on, not to
mention all the spikes, hash, noise etc on the line from the charger,
water pump switching etc.

the thing that goes is the backlight inverter, little puff of smoke and
you get no picture, the picture is there, but cant be seen due to ne
backlighting,

the flat screen tv makers are wise to backlight inverter faliurs caused
by overvoltage now, and reject a warrenty claim when they see the
components have failed in the way they usually do when someone runs them
on a caravan/motorhome 12 volt supply.

For about 40 you can get a DC to DC converter, i have one that protects
my Tv, dvd and sat boxes, takes from 10 to 18 volts in and all the
rubbish on the line, and outputs exactly 12.3 volts of pure clean power,
got all sorts of electronic protection in it, unplug the dvd player and
it'll shut down due to the tiny spark you get then unplugging it, that's
how sensative it is,
i have a large solar array on my vans roof, and it does an equalizing
charge every month, takes the batteries upto 16 volts for a few hours to
balance them all out and stir up the cells, my Tv would have let the
magic smoke out first time it did that for sure.

mines rates at 8 amps, and runs cool as a cucumber, but any DC-DC
converter will as it's not having to chop the voltage down from 230 to
12, which is how switched mode psu's work, the excess voltage/current is
the heat you get in the power brick, i imagine your TV's power brick is
rated for 50 watts, the tv can pull 50 watts, hence it gets hot, find a
100 watt power brick and it'll run cooler.



Oh dear. With respect, if you don't fully understand it don't pontificate.

First, a lead acid battery will charge if the incoming supply is higher
than its quiescent plate voltage. A fully charged battery will provide
2.2V per cell or 13.2V unloaded. The bit about 13.8V (or 2.3Vpc) is the
point at which a battery will start to gas, so if you charge it at, say,
13.5V, whilst it will not make full charge it won't gas either - which
must be safer.

In a car the alternator output is regulated at 14.4V or 2.4Vpc. It matters
not in such a situation if the battery is gassing as the engine bay is
open to the outside and the gas will disperse quite easily. Not the same
in a gas box on a caravan, hence caravan PSUs (which incidentally are
these days almost all switched mode) are usually set at 13.8V or slightly
less.

In respect of the TV, it would be useful to look at what it says on the
set about supply volts, not on the PSU. I would be very surprised if the
TV is not rated at 12-15V. I would also doubt the PSU will be linear as
the regulation of the transformer would require it to be large and heavy
and have a fairly large heatsink on the regulator to dissipate the heat
generated by the high transformer output voltage that would be necessary.
(Have you ever looked at the size of a 5A regulated PSU for CB or similar
users?) The PSU will almost certainly be switched mode which means it
should run pretty well cold. If it is getting hot as described by the OP
then it is almost certainly faulty. It shouldn't matter a jot whether it
is rated 5A or 10A - it should neither get hot nor get any hotter if the
load is greater. It would have been useful to know if the supply was
getting hot when not connected to the TV.

A SMPS doesn't quite work in the way to which you allude. The incoming
mains is rectified to d.c. and then chopped at high frequency by a power
transistor to feed a conventional transformer. When hard on or hard off
transistors dissipate almost no heat, they only get hot when there is a
voltage drop across them as in a linear regulator.

Because of the high frequency the transformer losses are much less and it
is much more efficient so can be very small. In a well designed supply
there is a feedback circuit between the input switching side and the
output so that the secondary voltage of the transformer (after
rectification and smoothing) only provides just enough headroom to keep
the (linear) output regulator working. The regulator thence will dissipate
very little heat and the whole unit will be barely tepid to touch. If it
is getting hot, as the OP described, then it is either a very poorly
designed SMPS, or it is faulty.

I would suggest that any manufacturer making something to work from 12V
must assume that it will at some point be used on a battery supply, ergo
it must be safe to run off at least 13.2V if not 13.8V (which is, by
default, the output voltage to which most nominal 12V supplies are set.) I
would however agree that the 12V supply of a caravan - unless it is taken
directly from the battery - can be quite dirty with some horrible spikes,
so some sort of protection is a good idea. A small choke in series with a
following capacitor in parallel will remove the spikes but as the battery
is in effect a huge capacitor, direction connection is the best bet.

If you want to spend money then a 12V isolating switching regulator is the
best bet. Those by Alfatronix (of Poole) are not only well made but also
carry a lifetime warranty, so if it goes wrong they swap if f.o.c. They
are very widely used in the mobile radio industry to run radios in buses,
trains, trams, etc - and they run COLD.


--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com




HELP !

  #10 (permalink)  
Old May 24th 09, 09:52 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
artleknock
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 131
Default 12v TV

On Sat, 23 May 2009 17:10:36 +0100, "Tom" wrote:

I recently bought a new 16" flat screen TV to use in the caravan. The TV
uses a 240v to 12v 4.lamp 50w transformer which gets exceedingly hot and I
am not happy with the heat generated. Can I run the TV from one of the 12v
sockets in the van whilst the van is connected to the mains recharging the
battery. I do not want to run the TV just from the battery , if the TV will
work that way, as I understand the battery will be flat in no time. I do not
have a user manual and the suppliers of the TV are not any help. Any replies
appreciated...Thanks


The output from the 240v to 12v transformer for my TV - a DMTech, is
actualy 13.4v DC. So I made up a lead and run the TV direct from the
vans battery.
 



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