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UK Caravanning (uk.rec.caravanning) A forum for the discussion of caravanning undertaken by residents of the United Kingdom, whether in the UK or abroad. It encourages the interchange of views on the merits of models of caravan, makes of tow car, accessories, caravan sites, caravan clubs, and other related topics. The term caravan is to include trailer vans, motor caravans and trailer tents.

Filtering - an alternative stategy



 
 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old January 1st 04, 03:34 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Newcomer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default Filtering - an alternative stategy

As a newcomer to this group, and for that matter, news groups in
general, I confess to writing this with some trepidation: I imagine it
will generate some flak and I may be labelled an arrogant presumptive
upstart. It will also expose the fact that I know very little about how
the Internet and those who play on it work. In fact, it's quite possible
this is an inherently bad idea but the principle seems sound enough, so
here goes. I'm sure you'll let me know the extent of my folly :-)

Every posting I've read from you guys recommends passive action against
the trolls: filtering them out as a way of denying they exist; ignoring
the fact that they're destroying this group for those who are less
tech-savvy. Why not reverse the roles, fight back; make the trolls'
existence in this group too difficult?

The principle would be to swamp the trolls with replies to any posting
they made. Provided sufficient numbers of users did this the trolls
would be inundated and wouldn't be able to keep up with their threads or
intercommunications - even they have only so many hours in a day. It
would be them who would be continually 'blocking sender' and we could
play them at their own game of constantly changing address to neutralise
that defence; they couldn't use cross posting as a filter since they are
the ones originating the cross posting.

Obviously this approach would initially cause even more pain to the
group (and cross posted groups, who one would hope would join in the
melee) but isn't that what all battles are about, taking pain now to
forge a better future or preserve something that is in peril? I don't
for one moment imagine the trolls will give in easily but if we
persevered I'm sure we could engender such frustration in their febrile
little minds that they eventually condescend to play elsewhere.

On a practical note, genuine caravan news could be easily distinguished
(and sorted) by always prefixing the subject line with "CARAVAN";
something the trolls couldn't do if they still wanted to cross post. I'm
assuming those tech-savvy enough to have installed filters would have
disabled them in order to participate in the 'troll battle' hence
sorting would be desirable, even to them. Also, I would imagine the most
irritating content for the replies would be text cropped from previous
troll postings: they would find that far less easy to discard without
wasting time determining whether it was a new message from their peers.
Personally, I'm not particularly happy with the idea of propagating
their profanity but I could probably justify it to myself as being 'for
the greater good' provided others understood my motives.

I listen to those of you with more experience who say 'leave alone and
the problem will go away of its own accord' but I don't see why that
should be true. I think we should be thankful the disruptive elements
appear to lack the motive - or the maybe the wit - to flood the group
with computer generated postings and automated replies. That means \they
actually read the postings\, and that's why this idea would work:
instead of getting kicks from scanning their handiwork they'd only get
frustration.

In the real world, communities have successfully cleaned up their urban
neighbourhoods by getting together and acting in unison. Being passive
and ignoring the problem only encourages the drug dealers and
prostitutes. Maybe we ignore that lesson at our peril.

S.


Ads
  #2 (permalink)  
Old January 1st 04, 04:04 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Paul - xxx
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,042
Default Filtering - an alternative stategy

Newcomer posted ...

As a newcomer to this group, and for that matter, news groups in
general


Exactly ..

What you propose is against many regular posters ISP's TOS. It is probable
that they would have to change ISP's etc etc Many posters simply aren't
bothered enough to get anonymous mailers and suchlike to carry out such an
automated 'troll response' as you suggest, even though it _is_ easy enough
to do ...

Two wrongs don't make a right ..


--
Paul


  #3 (permalink)  
Old January 1st 04, 07:03 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
bill lord
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 317
Default Filtering - an alternative stategy

On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 16:34:58 -0000, "Newcomer"
wrote:

As a newcomer to this group, and for that matter, news groups in
general, I confess to writing this with some trepidation: I imagine it
will generate some flak and I may be labelled an arrogant presumptive
upstart.


Welcome nice to see you, happy new year, We shall all read your ideas
with interest hopefully we shall learn a little.


(remove the spam to reply)
I've taken a vow of poverty, to annoy me send money
  #4 (permalink)  
Old January 1st 04, 07:03 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
bill lord
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 317
Default Filtering - an alternative stategy

On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 16:34:58 -0000, "Newcomer"
wrote:

Every posting I've read from you guys recommends passive action against
the trolls: filtering them out as a way of denying they exist; ignoring
the fact that they're destroying this group for those who are less
tech-savvy. Why not reverse the roles, fight back; make the trolls'
existence in this group too difficult?


The only problem with this idea is that it would not make the trolls
existence too dificult, it would simply make them consider how well
they were doing their job. Many trolls are out to see how long a
thread they can propogate and are looking to break some virtual record
by this. Ignoring them denies them credibility.

The principle would be to swamp the trolls with replies to any posting
they made. Provided sufficient numbers of users did this the trolls
would be inundated and wouldn't be able to keep up with their threads or
intercommunications - even they have only so many hours in a day.


Then they would become selective but continue to post at the same or
even greater level as they do now.

It
would be them who would be continually 'blocking sender' and we could
play them at their own game of constantly changing address to neutralise
that defence; they couldn't use cross posting as a filter since they are
the ones originating the cross posting.


I doubt that they would block sender they are happy to see the results
of their labours most have access to the internet 24/7 and are not
concerned about filling bandwidth.

Obviously this approach would initially cause even more pain to the
group (and cross posted groups, who one would hope would join in the
melee) but isn't that what all battles are about, taking pain now to
forge a better future or preserve something that is in peril? I don't
for one moment imagine the trolls will give in easily but if we
persevered I'm sure we could engender such frustration in their febrile
little minds that they eventually condescend to play elsewhere.


In the process it would destroy each and every group that tried to
compete, and in the process breach the constitution of many
newsgroups.

On a practical note, genuine caravan news could be easily distinguished
(and sorted) by always prefixing the subject line with "CARAVAN";


That is a good idea.

something the trolls couldn't do if they still wanted to cross post. I'm
assuming those tech-savvy enough to have installed filters would have
disabled them in order to participate in the 'troll battle' hence
sorting would be desirable, even to them.


Having finally bitten the bullet and got hold of Newsproxy, cross
posting is very easy to filter out and in doing so eleiminates
virtually all the spurious messages. That being said I struggled to
setup the version of Newsproxy that was recommended by Dave Fawthrop,
I could not find out how to setup a filter to eleiminate cross
posting, I was then pointed to an earlier version which has on the
same site an FAQ that gives examples of how to setup the filters. This
one works a treat. It is to be highly recommended. The relevant
addresses are

For a very helpful doc. file,
http://web.archive.org/web/200210130...r.org/faq.html

and for the executable,
http://web.archive.org/web/200202080...120/np-120.exe


for this help I thank Ian D

Also, I would imagine the most
irritating content for the replies would be text cropped from previous
troll postings: they would find that far less easy to discard without
wasting time determining whether it was a new message from their peers.


They don't consider they just post.

Personally, I'm not particularly happy with the idea of propagating
their profanity but I could probably justify it to myself as being 'for
the greater good' provided others understood my motives.


I will not propogate it, it offends me

I listen to those of you with more experience who say 'leave alone and
the problem will go away of its own accord' but I don't see why that
should be true.


The trolls thrive on attention, if we ignore them they go away,
besides which the school/university holidays are nearly over.


In the real world, communities have successfully cleaned up their urban
neighbourhoods by getting together and acting in unison. Being passive
and ignoring the problem only encourages the drug dealers and
prostitutes. Maybe we ignore that lesson at our peril.


This community has become quite successful over the last few weeks at
acting in unison to protect our group. There have been few replies to
the trolls postings, there has been an increasing level of polite an
on topic postings. THis to me is the way forward don't let the
b******* grind you down.


(remove the spam to reply)
I've taken a vow of poverty, to annoy me send money
  #5 (permalink)  
Old January 1st 04, 08:22 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Lenny
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 989
Default Filtering - an alternative stategy

On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 20:03:15 +0000, bill lord
wrote:



The only problem with this idea is that it would not make the trolls
existence too dificult, it would simply make them consider how well
they were doing their job. Many trolls are out to see how long a
thread they can propogate and are looking to break some virtual record
by this. Ignoring them denies them credibility.


I agree although one can be tempted to reply I never do I just Kill
them & ignore them & carry on enjoying this NG.

Lenny
  #6 (permalink)  
Old January 1st 04, 08:52 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Sigmund
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 77
Default Filtering - an alternative stategy

On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 16:34:58 -0000, "Newcomer"
wrote:
In the real world, communities have successfully cleaned up their urban
neighbourhoods by getting together and acting in unison. Being passive
and ignoring the problem only encourages the drug dealers and
prostitutes. Maybe we ignore that lesson at our peril.


Different problems require different solutions.
Problem - a troll seeks responses by sending irritating messages.
Solution - ignore the troll. It's really not difficult to do, learn how to
killfile, filter or block sender - whatever facility your browser has.

  #7 (permalink)  
Old January 1st 04, 09:14 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Paul - xxx
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,042
Default Filtering - an alternative stategy

bill lord posted ...

Having finally bitten the bullet and got hold of Newsproxy, cross
posting is very easy to filter out and in doing so eleiminates
virtually all the spurious messages.


For a very helpful doc. file,
http://web.archive.org/web/200210130...r.org/faq.html

and for the executable,

http://web.archive.org/web/200202080...120/np-120.exe

That's what I have setup .. It _does_ mean I miss everyone who crossposts,
even the 'good' posters who are replying .. but I figure I'm not missing
toooo much ..

Takes a while to figure out in OE, as no-one has a FAQ for the setup, but
following what it says for Agent and Netscape etc, it does work well ...

If anyone wants to use it in OE, post back and I'll post back with a quick
setup ..

--
Paul


  #8 (permalink)  
Old January 1st 04, 10:00 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
wolfie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default Filtering - an alternative stategy


"Sigmund" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 16:34:58 -0000, "Newcomer"
wrote:
In the real world, communities have successfully cleaned up their urban
neighbourhoods by getting together and acting in unison. Being passive
and ignoring the problem only encourages the drug dealers and
prostitutes. Maybe we ignore that lesson at our peril.


Different problems require different solutions.
Problem - a troll seeks responses by sending irritating messages.
Solution - ignore the troll.

As much as real posters ignore the trolls it will not stop them.
There are a band of people that are dedicated to their infantile debates and
are determined to let the world know how "clever" they are.



  #9 (permalink)  
Old January 1st 04, 10:48 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Mary Fisher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 118
Default Filtering - an alternative stategy


"Paul - xxx" wrote in message
...
bill lord posted ...

Having finally bitten the bullet and got hold of Newsproxy, cross
posting is very easy to filter out and in doing so eleiminates
virtually all the spurious messages.


For a very helpful doc. file,
http://web.archive.org/web/200210130...r.org/faq.html

and for the executable,


http://web.archive.org/web/200202080...120/np-120.exe

That's what I have setup .. It _does_ mean I miss everyone who crossposts,
even the 'good' posters who are replying .. but I figure I'm not missing
toooo much ..

Takes a while to figure out in OE, as no-one has a FAQ for the setup, but
following what it says for Agent and Netscape etc, it does work well ...



If anyone wants to use it in OE, post back and I'll post back with a quick
setup ..


I'd like to - if I can understand the instructions.

Mary

--
Paul




  #10 (permalink)  
Old January 1st 04, 11:06 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Paul - xxx
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,042
Default Filtering - an alternative stategy

Mary Fisher posted ...

"Paul - xxx" wrote in message
...
bill lord posted ...

Having finally bitten the bullet and got hold of Newsproxy, cross
posting is very easy to filter out and in doing so eleiminates
virtually all the spurious messages.


For a very helpful doc. file,
http://web.archive.org/web/200210130...r.org/faq.html

and for the executable,



http://web.archive.org/web/200202080...120/np-120.exe

That's what I have setup .. It _does_ mean I miss everyone who
crossposts, even the 'good' posters who are replying .. but I figure
I'm not missing toooo much ..

Takes a while to figure out in OE, as no-one has a FAQ for the
setup, but following what it says for Agent and Netscape etc, it
does work well ...



If anyone wants to use it in OE, post back and I'll post back with a
quick setup ..


I'd like to - if I can understand the instructions.


Heheheh, no worries ..

Configuring Outlook Express 6 to use NewsProxy / NFilter ...

Assuming you are using news.individual.net as your newsserver ..

Right click on news.individual.net, select 'properties', select 'Server'
tab, enter Server Name as 'localhost', instead of news.individual.net, but
keep 'log on' checked and the Account name and Password as they are for the
standard news server name.

Select 'Connection' tab, Add, 'Dial up to private network', General tab host
name needs to be '127.0.0.1', and check 'Dial another Connection First',
which is changed or kept to an existing Internet Account ..

I found no need to change any other OE settings ..

Use the above in conjunction with the FAQ's to configure NewsProxy at the
sites Bill has posted and all becomes clear ..

In Filters instead of using, for example,
* drop xref:*:*:*:*
I use
uk.rec.caravanning drop xref:*:*:*:*
uk.rec.caravanning drop newsgroups:*,*,*
which leaves all my other groups intact .. but kills the vast majority of
crossposts ... The same applies to any other scoring or rules you may wish
to add / use ...

A simple way to check it works is to remove the crossposters, or a couple of
them maybe, entries from your killfile, then right click uk.rec.caravanning,
select properties, select 'local file' tab then select 'reset' button ..
this resets the group so that you need to download all headers and bodies
again .. When you do reload them all the message count starts at maybe 6000
messages, but as the crosspost filters 'kick in' the count drops rapidly.
Let it run, then when it's all done, scroll back a way to see if any posts
have got through .. if so you've done summat wrong, but persevere, it _is_
worth it ..

It _is_ a good feeling though to see that initial 6000+ count drop to 5000
then 4000 then to 3000, then even less posts ... Most satisfying ..

Hope it helps ..


--
Paul


 



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