A Caravan forum. Caravan Banter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » Caravan Banter forum » Caravan, Motor Homes and Camping Newsgroups » UK Caravanning
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

UK Caravanning (uk.rec.caravanning) A forum for the discussion of caravanning undertaken by residents of the United Kingdom, whether in the UK or abroad. It encourages the interchange of views on the merits of models of caravan, makes of tow car, accessories, caravan sites, caravan clubs, and other related topics. The term caravan is to include trailer vans, motor caravans and trailer tents.

weight / towing query



 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old June 10th 05, 09:39 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Tox O'Grady
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 30
Default weight / towing query


This twin axle van is posted on ebay
http://tinyurl.com/8rn9y

Its weight is advised as:-
Spec ex-works weight 1098kg, max weight 1350kg,length 7.17 mtrs, interior
length 5.67 mtrs


My car weighs 1750kilos and has a max towing weight of 1300kilos. Therefore
even at max weight it is inside the "85%" limit that people here recommend.

What I'd like to know is :-

If ex-works weight means the weight of the van +/- tol. as it leaves the
factory,( i.e no pots & pans or awnings thrown inside it) , then what does
the max weight represent ?

Is that the max weight of a van when its hitched up for towing ?


My car is a 1.9TD Synergie MPV which is only rated at 90bhp. I only have
young kids so the in-car weight should not get too heavy, but do you people
think a 90bhp 1750kg car is too weedy for a twin axle van ? I do have the
option to get it tuned up to ~115bhp by having its boost/fueling tweaked.

cheers


Ads
  #2 (permalink)  
Old June 10th 05, 10:09 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Hitch Lock
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 692
Default weight / towing query

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Tox O'Grady wrote:

This twin axle van is posted on ebay
http://tinyurl.com/8rn9y

Its weight is advised as:-
Spec ex-works weight 1098kg, max weight 1350kg,length 7.17 mtrs,
interior length 5.67 mtrs


My car weighs 1750kilos and has a max towing weight of 1300kilos.
Therefore even at max weight it is inside the "85%" limit that people
here recommend.

Is 1750Kg the *kerb* (unladen) weight of your car, or the all-up weight?
[The 85% recommendation relates to the all-up weight of the van but the kerb
weight of the car]

What I'd like to know is :-

If ex-works weight means the weight of the van +/- tol. as it leaves
the factory,( i.e no pots & pans or awnings thrown inside it) , then
what does the max weight represent ?

The ex-works weight is the nominal weight with no user equipment - not even
battery or gas bottles - probably based on weighing a prototype. Many
production vans are apparently *heavier* than the stated nominal weight -
leaving less margin for payload.

Is that the max weight of a van when its hitched up for towing ?

It's the maximum permitted weight when loaded, taking into account
chassis/tyre/brake etc. design. It is illegal to exceed this. However, if
your towcar has a *lower* towing limit, it is illegal to exceed *that* - so
your limit is actually 1300Kg.

My car is a 1.9TD Synergie MPV which is only rated at 90bhp. I only
have young kids so the in-car weight should not get too heavy, but do
you people think a 90bhp 1750kg car is too weedy for a twin axle van
? I do have the option to get it tuned up to ~115bhp by having its
boost/fueling tweaked.

As I said above, 1300Kg is the *legal* limit. In my view, the *practical*
limit is much lower than this. Many vehicle manufacturers publish somewhat
optimistic figures for what their vehicles can tow. I would certainly not
want to tow 1300Kg with 90bhp - or even with 115 for that matter.

You should also bear in mind that 200 Kg is not very much payload - and you
will be struggling to get everything you wish to carry within that limit.
One trick which some caravan manufacturers play is to declare the max weight
to be somewhat less than the design would warrant - in order that people
with a wider range of cars will buy them. In many cases, if you are using
(say) a 4x4 with a high towing limit, you can have the van re-plated to
enable you to carry a higher payload.

So the van which you are considering *may* be one with an artificially low
max weight - and really needs to be increased - and to be pulled by a bigger
towcar to make it usable.

If this is your first foray into caravanning, I would certainly be looking
for a lighter van - and almost certainly *not* a twin-axle jobby.
--
Cheers,
Hitch Lock
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.


  #3 (permalink)  
Old June 10th 05, 10:09 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Hitch Lock
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 692
Default weight / towing query

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Tox O'Grady wrote:

This twin axle van is posted on ebay
http://tinyurl.com/8rn9y

Its weight is advised as:-
Spec ex-works weight 1098kg, max weight 1350kg,length 7.17 mtrs,
interior length 5.67 mtrs


My car weighs 1750kilos and has a max towing weight of 1300kilos.
Therefore even at max weight it is inside the "85%" limit that people
here recommend.

Is 1750Kg the *kerb* (unladen) weight of your car, or the all-up weight?
[The 85% recommendation relates to the all-up weight of the van but the kerb
weight of the car]

What I'd like to know is :-

If ex-works weight means the weight of the van +/- tol. as it leaves
the factory,( i.e no pots & pans or awnings thrown inside it) , then
what does the max weight represent ?

The ex-works weight is the nominal weight with no user equipment - not even
battery or gas bottles - probably based on weighing a prototype. Many
production vans are apparently *heavier* than the stated nominal weight -
leaving less margin for payload.

Is that the max weight of a van when its hitched up for towing ?

It's the maximum permitted weight when loaded, taking into account
chassis/tyre/brake etc. design. It is illegal to exceed this. However, if
your towcar has a *lower* towing limit, it is illegal to exceed *that* - so
your limit is actually 1300Kg.

My car is a 1.9TD Synergie MPV which is only rated at 90bhp. I only
have young kids so the in-car weight should not get too heavy, but do
you people think a 90bhp 1750kg car is too weedy for a twin axle van
? I do have the option to get it tuned up to ~115bhp by having its
boost/fueling tweaked.

As I said above, 1300Kg is the *legal* limit. In my view, the *practical*
limit is much lower than this. Many vehicle manufacturers publish somewhat
optimistic figures for what their vehicles can tow. I would certainly not
want to tow 1300Kg with 90bhp - or even with 115 for that matter.

You should also bear in mind that 200 Kg is not very much payload - and you
will be struggling to get everything you wish to carry within that limit.
One trick which some caravan manufacturers play is to declare the max weight
to be somewhat less than the design would warrant - in order that people
with a wider range of cars will buy them. In many cases, if you are using
(say) a 4x4 with a high towing limit, you can have the van re-plated to
enable you to carry a higher payload.

So the van which you are considering *may* be one with an artificially low
max weight - and really needs to be increased - and to be pulled by a bigger
towcar to make it usable.

If this is your first foray into caravanning, I would certainly be looking
for a lighter van - and almost certainly *not* a twin-axle jobby.
--
Cheers,
Hitch Lock
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.


  #4 (permalink)  
Old June 10th 05, 11:40 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
David @ Home
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 185
Default weight / towing query


Your car has a stated towing limit of 1300kg. You must not tow more than
this.

If the car was built after 1998 then your car must be able to tow the
potential maximum weight of your trailer or caravan, therefore, even if you
did not load this caravan to its maximum you would still not be legal.

Even at 1300kg you are right to be concerned about the suitability of your
engine. Its a large car it is dragging along and a caravan will only make
that worse.

Sorry to be so negative.

Cheers

David


  #5 (permalink)  
Old June 10th 05, 11:40 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
David @ Home
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 185
Default weight / towing query


Your car has a stated towing limit of 1300kg. You must not tow more than
this.

If the car was built after 1998 then your car must be able to tow the
potential maximum weight of your trailer or caravan, therefore, even if you
did not load this caravan to its maximum you would still not be legal.

Even at 1300kg you are right to be concerned about the suitability of your
engine. Its a large car it is dragging along and a caravan will only make
that worse.

Sorry to be so negative.

Cheers

David


  #6 (permalink)  
Old June 11th 05, 09:28 AM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Tox O'Grady
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 30
Default weight / towing query

The negative opinions are respected, though I'm wary of people who love the
4x4s so much that they over influence this NG.

I am interested in this topic because I've seen other non-4x4 MPVs towing
twin axle vans. For exmple, when I was search for the right MPV for my needs
( which did not consider towing at that juncture ) I'm sure I saw some
literature on the Galaxy/Alhambra/Sharon which stated it could tow 1900kg.
Equally I've seen quite a few of these cars actually tugging twin axle vans
along.
The majority of 1.9 diesels are 90/110 bhp but the later versions are 130.

Therefore if these MPVs can do it then why can't mine cope with 1300kilos
( assuming I get it tweaked to 115bhp ). I'm not looking to drag one up Ben
Nevis..

I figured the single biggest consideration was to not have a car too light
such that a van can push it along and affect its braking.





"David @ Home" wrote in message
...

Your car has a stated towing limit of 1300kg. You must not tow more than
this.

If the car was built after 1998 then your car must be able to tow the
potential maximum weight of your trailer or caravan, therefore, even if
you
did not load this caravan to its maximum you would still not be legal.

Even at 1300kg you are right to be concerned about the suitability of your
engine. Its a large car it is dragging along and a caravan will only make
that worse.

Sorry to be so negative.

Cheers

David




  #7 (permalink)  
Old June 11th 05, 09:28 AM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Tox O'Grady
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 30
Default weight / towing query

The negative opinions are respected, though I'm wary of people who love the
4x4s so much that they over influence this NG.

I am interested in this topic because I've seen other non-4x4 MPVs towing
twin axle vans. For exmple, when I was search for the right MPV for my needs
( which did not consider towing at that juncture ) I'm sure I saw some
literature on the Galaxy/Alhambra/Sharon which stated it could tow 1900kg.
Equally I've seen quite a few of these cars actually tugging twin axle vans
along.
The majority of 1.9 diesels are 90/110 bhp but the later versions are 130.

Therefore if these MPVs can do it then why can't mine cope with 1300kilos
( assuming I get it tweaked to 115bhp ). I'm not looking to drag one up Ben
Nevis..

I figured the single biggest consideration was to not have a car too light
such that a van can push it along and affect its braking.





"David @ Home" wrote in message
...

Your car has a stated towing limit of 1300kg. You must not tow more than
this.

If the car was built after 1998 then your car must be able to tow the
potential maximum weight of your trailer or caravan, therefore, even if
you
did not load this caravan to its maximum you would still not be legal.

Even at 1300kg you are right to be concerned about the suitability of your
engine. Its a large car it is dragging along and a caravan will only make
that worse.

Sorry to be so negative.

Cheers

David




  #8 (permalink)  
Old June 11th 05, 10:41 AM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Mr W Z Boson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 142
Default weight / towing query

In the days when "ex-works" weights were quoted, they were allowed to
get away with a 5% error margin - this usually meant that the "naked"
weight of the caravan was 5% higher than quoted (in your case this
makes the van "true ex-works wt." 1153Kg). Then you have to add on
"fitments" - this means fridge, battery, electrics, oven, TV, central
heating, shower etc. This could easily add another 100Kg.

So - your van could be as much as 1250Kg without loading any other
stuff in it, giving you a possible load limit as low as 100Kg.

It's also a twin axle - this means ...

.. replacement tyres (which is done immediately for a secondhand van and
every 5 years afterwards) cost double

.. maintenance of hubs-brakes more complicated.

.. many french (if you ever venture there) campsites don't allow twin
axles unless you convince them you're not travellers

Also I would suggest your car is underpowered for such a load and would
tend to overheat if you try to keep up a decent pace.

Sorry to be negative, but it's better to be wary than ending up looking
at a blown head gasket half way up some long climb or other.

  #9 (permalink)  
Old June 11th 05, 10:41 AM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Mr W Z Boson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 142
Default weight / towing query

In the days when "ex-works" weights were quoted, they were allowed to
get away with a 5% error margin - this usually meant that the "naked"
weight of the caravan was 5% higher than quoted (in your case this
makes the van "true ex-works wt." 1153Kg). Then you have to add on
"fitments" - this means fridge, battery, electrics, oven, TV, central
heating, shower etc. This could easily add another 100Kg.

So - your van could be as much as 1250Kg without loading any other
stuff in it, giving you a possible load limit as low as 100Kg.

It's also a twin axle - this means ...

.. replacement tyres (which is done immediately for a secondhand van and
every 5 years afterwards) cost double

.. maintenance of hubs-brakes more complicated.

.. many french (if you ever venture there) campsites don't allow twin
axles unless you convince them you're not travellers

Also I would suggest your car is underpowered for such a load and would
tend to overheat if you try to keep up a decent pace.

Sorry to be negative, but it's better to be wary than ending up looking
at a blown head gasket half way up some long climb or other.

  #10 (permalink)  
Old June 11th 05, 11:12 AM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Hitch Lock
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 692
Default weight / towing query

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Tox O'Grady wrote:

The negative opinions are respected, though I'm wary of people who
love the 4x4s so much that they over influence this NG.

I hope I didn't give the impression that I'm a 4x4 lover - I'm not. I would
always choose a van which was well within the capabilities of my
2-wheel-drive car. However, when you get to a certain size/weight of van,
the only *realistic* possibility is to tow it with a 4x4.

I am interested in this topic because I've seen other non-4x4 MPVs
towing twin axle vans. For exmple, when I was search for the right
MPV for my needs ( which did not consider towing at that juncture )
I'm sure I saw some literature on the Galaxy/Alhambra/Sharon which
stated it could tow 1900kg. Equally I've seen quite a few of these
cars actually tugging twin axle vans along.
The majority of 1.9 diesels are 90/110 bhp but the later versions are
130.

Therefore if these MPVs can do it then why can't mine cope with
1300kilos ( assuming I get it tweaked to 115bhp ). I'm not looking to
drag one up Ben Nevis..

I figured the single biggest consideration was to not have a car too
light such that a van can push it along and affect its braking.


The are two separate considerations - legalities apart - when looking at
towing weights. The first is stability - and this is where the 85%
recommendation applies. What you propose is probably ok on this front.

The second is performance. Your car could probably tow a *jumbo jet* at low
speed on a level surface - but wouldn't have any acceleration, and would be
completely useless on any sort of gradient. Whilst you may get away with
towing a heavy van on a level motorway, you will have to do at least part of
each journey on ordinary roads. If you can't make reasonable progress on
cross-country roads you will rightly incur the wrath of other road users.
Even worse, consider what will happen if you ever have to stop half-way up a
hill - and hills *do* exist without having to go to Ben Nevis! If you can't
restart on a gradient of 1 in 10, you could find yourself in some very
embarrasing situations.

I think that, without exception, all the replies to your query have
suggested that you ought to think again. Neverthesless, you seem intent on
convincing yourself that what you propose is feasible. At the end of the
day, it's your call - but if you know you're not going to like the answers,
maybe it's better not to ask the question!
--
Cheers,
Hitch Lock
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.


 



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT. The time now is 07:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.0.0 RC6
Copyright 2004-2019 Caravan Banter.
The comments are property of their posters.