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UK Caravanning (uk.rec.caravanning) A forum for the discussion of caravanning undertaken by residents of the United Kingdom, whether in the UK or abroad. It encourages the interchange of views on the merits of models of caravan, makes of tow car, accessories, caravan sites, caravan clubs, and other related topics. The term caravan is to include trailer vans, motor caravans and trailer tents.

towing query - 2nd thread



 
 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old June 13th 05, 09:28 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Tox O'Grady
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 30
Default towing query - 2nd thread

I received plenty of advice on a recent post why suggested my 'family' car
( 90hp 1750kg Synergie ) was not a decent enough tug.


If I switch attention to my other car ( 100hp Laguna 1.9dTI 1310kg kerb with
max legal tug of 1600kg ) , then can you chaps/chapettes guide me to what
factory caravan weight I should be aiming for.

The 85% guideline means I should be going up to a ceiling of 1110kg. I'm
trying to find a 5/6 berth van with oven/heating/H&C water/awning.
I need advice on what kind of weight the typical awning , gas bottles and
other accessories add up to so I can deduct from my 1110kg and fix a target
nameplate weight.

To explain from my newbie perspective, my wife fell in love with this
Avondale 6 berth van for the dream-on value of 12.5k at Glossop this
weekend. Its window sticker weight was 1070kilos. One of the reps gave me
advice at the time and said Mondeos could pull these so could Lagunas ( but
lets face it, he had the bonus of 12.5k sale in the front of his thoughts )

Similarly, does anyone know of any databases / webpages that list archives
of caravan weights going back to the early 90's




Ads
  #2 (permalink)  
Old June 14th 05, 01:24 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Geoff Lane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 870
Default towing query - 2nd thread

"Tox O'Grady" wrote in
:

I received plenty of advice on a recent post why suggested my 'family'
car ( 90hp 1750kg Synergie ) was not a decent enough tug.


If I switch attention to my other car ( 100hp Laguna 1.9dTI 1310kg
kerb with max legal tug of 1600kg ) , then can you chaps/chapettes
guide me to what factory caravan weight I should be aiming for.


Manufacturer's towing limits are based on the ability to restart on a
particular gradient (12%, IIRC), not the whether the car can tow that
weight in safety.

FWIW, I have a Citroen Dispatch 2.0 Hdi (95bhp) which is built on the
same chassis as your Synergie and it's a superb tug for the right 'van.
For that, I found it better, when hitched to my 1150 kg ABI, than the
Volvo 850 saloon that I recently replaced with a Pajero. IMO, the
Dispatch is nearly as good as the Pajero with the ABI.

Although, with its 140 bhp, the Volvo could pull the caravan up steeper
hills faster, the Dispatch got me from Plymouth to the Cotswolds a few
years ago and I only dropped below the limit twice because of hills
(Haldon Hill near Exeter, and Birdlip Hill on the escarpment up to the
Cotswolds). The Dispatch was so much more stable, which I put down to
firmer suspension, better aerodynamic "shielding" of the caravan, and a
shorter rear overhang.

Now, 85% of the 1310 kg Laguna kerbweight is just 1114 kg, which limits
your choice of caravan dramatically. Once you have a little experience,
you may be able to tow 1300 kg with the Laguna - but that's the towing
limit of the Synergie! So, whatever you buy, you can try both cars and
choose the tug that pans out best.

That said, of the two cars, instinct tells me that the Synergie will be
the better towcar, even though it has less power. Match it to a light
caravan (e.g. a Lunar Solar Eclipse 524, with MTPLM 1200 kg), and you
should have a good outfit - provided that you don't expect to break any
speed records!

HTH,

--
Geoff Lane
Cornwall, UK
  #3 (permalink)  
Old June 14th 05, 01:24 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Geoff Lane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 870
Default towing query - 2nd thread

"Tox O'Grady" wrote in
:

I received plenty of advice on a recent post why suggested my 'family'
car ( 90hp 1750kg Synergie ) was not a decent enough tug.


If I switch attention to my other car ( 100hp Laguna 1.9dTI 1310kg
kerb with max legal tug of 1600kg ) , then can you chaps/chapettes
guide me to what factory caravan weight I should be aiming for.


Manufacturer's towing limits are based on the ability to restart on a
particular gradient (12%, IIRC), not the whether the car can tow that
weight in safety.

FWIW, I have a Citroen Dispatch 2.0 Hdi (95bhp) which is built on the
same chassis as your Synergie and it's a superb tug for the right 'van.
For that, I found it better, when hitched to my 1150 kg ABI, than the
Volvo 850 saloon that I recently replaced with a Pajero. IMO, the
Dispatch is nearly as good as the Pajero with the ABI.

Although, with its 140 bhp, the Volvo could pull the caravan up steeper
hills faster, the Dispatch got me from Plymouth to the Cotswolds a few
years ago and I only dropped below the limit twice because of hills
(Haldon Hill near Exeter, and Birdlip Hill on the escarpment up to the
Cotswolds). The Dispatch was so much more stable, which I put down to
firmer suspension, better aerodynamic "shielding" of the caravan, and a
shorter rear overhang.

Now, 85% of the 1310 kg Laguna kerbweight is just 1114 kg, which limits
your choice of caravan dramatically. Once you have a little experience,
you may be able to tow 1300 kg with the Laguna - but that's the towing
limit of the Synergie! So, whatever you buy, you can try both cars and
choose the tug that pans out best.

That said, of the two cars, instinct tells me that the Synergie will be
the better towcar, even though it has less power. Match it to a light
caravan (e.g. a Lunar Solar Eclipse 524, with MTPLM 1200 kg), and you
should have a good outfit - provided that you don't expect to break any
speed records!

HTH,

--
Geoff Lane
Cornwall, UK
  #4 (permalink)  
Old June 14th 05, 05:47 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Tox O'Grady
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 30
Default towing query - 2nd thread


FWIW, I have a Citroen Dispatch 2.0 Hdi (95bhp) which is built on the
same chassis as your Synergie and it's a superb tug for the right 'van.
For that, I found it better, when hitched to my 1150 kg ABI, than the
Volvo 850 saloon that I recently replaced with a Pajero. IMO, the
Dispatch is nearly as good as the Pajero with the ABI.

Although, with its 140 bhp, the Volvo could pull the caravan up steeper
hills faster, the Dispatch got me from Plymouth to the Cotswolds a few
years ago and I only dropped below the limit twice because of hills
(Haldon Hill near Exeter, and Birdlip Hill on the escarpment up to the
Cotswolds). The Dispatch was so much more stable, which I put down to
firmer suspension, better aerodynamic "shielding" of the caravan, and a
shorter rear overhang.

Now, 85% of the 1310 kg Laguna kerbweight is just 1114 kg, which limits
your choice of caravan dramatically. Once you have a little experience,
you may be able to tow 1300 kg with the Laguna - but that's the towing
limit of the Synergie! So, whatever you buy, you can try both cars and
choose the tug that pans out best.

That said, of the two cars, instinct tells me that the Synergie will be
the better towcar, even though it has less power. Match it to a light
caravan (e.g. a Lunar Solar Eclipse 524, with MTPLM 1200 kg), and you
should have a good outfit - provided that you don't expect to break any
speed records!

HTH,

--
Geoff Lane
Cornwall, UK




Thanks Geoff, your comments do seem to support my earlier post in which I
was looking for feedback about uprating my 1.9TD to 115bhp ( maybe even
loosing the cat and egr system ). I know that cooling would be a concern
such that on the hills I'd have to stick the internal heater on full warm to
counteract any big climbs.

But I must make the distinction now, that I do agree a full twin axle van
would be too much for this car. I'm more interested in finding out if my
Synergie could cope with a slim margin inside 1300kg MTPLM providing I did
do something about its rated power.
I am an engineer, and I look at this Synergie as a van based , rigid floored
, wide+wedge shaped car with ( as you say yourself ) a really short rear
overhang. I've got an aero shaped roof box currently on it which brings the
airflow right up to a potential caravans roofline. Apart from the power, its
got all the right cridentials to tow.

When people said they wouldn't even like to tow with 115bhp it caused me to
take a closer look at 4x4 diesels and see what kind of hp some of this big
2.8-3.1 ltr engined cars had. I was less than impressed at the figures and
feel the pre-98 ones were old dinosour technology , however robust they may
be.

The example I'm referring to is the 113bhp 3.1TD Isuzu Trooper. I do like
the look of this car but whats so special about 2060 kerb weight and
113horses. I am actually considering selling my 98 Synergie as I've had it
3yrs, but I still need it for this Summer. Maybe I will sell it, but I would
only touch one of the later Trooper diesels that were 157bhp or something
similar.
I've also just checked out the replacement of the Synergie called the C8.
The 2.0 diesel is only106bhp but that now has a breaked two limit of
1850kilos...go figure!


















  #5 (permalink)  
Old June 14th 05, 05:47 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Tox O'Grady
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 30
Default towing query - 2nd thread


FWIW, I have a Citroen Dispatch 2.0 Hdi (95bhp) which is built on the
same chassis as your Synergie and it's a superb tug for the right 'van.
For that, I found it better, when hitched to my 1150 kg ABI, than the
Volvo 850 saloon that I recently replaced with a Pajero. IMO, the
Dispatch is nearly as good as the Pajero with the ABI.

Although, with its 140 bhp, the Volvo could pull the caravan up steeper
hills faster, the Dispatch got me from Plymouth to the Cotswolds a few
years ago and I only dropped below the limit twice because of hills
(Haldon Hill near Exeter, and Birdlip Hill on the escarpment up to the
Cotswolds). The Dispatch was so much more stable, which I put down to
firmer suspension, better aerodynamic "shielding" of the caravan, and a
shorter rear overhang.

Now, 85% of the 1310 kg Laguna kerbweight is just 1114 kg, which limits
your choice of caravan dramatically. Once you have a little experience,
you may be able to tow 1300 kg with the Laguna - but that's the towing
limit of the Synergie! So, whatever you buy, you can try both cars and
choose the tug that pans out best.

That said, of the two cars, instinct tells me that the Synergie will be
the better towcar, even though it has less power. Match it to a light
caravan (e.g. a Lunar Solar Eclipse 524, with MTPLM 1200 kg), and you
should have a good outfit - provided that you don't expect to break any
speed records!

HTH,

--
Geoff Lane
Cornwall, UK




Thanks Geoff, your comments do seem to support my earlier post in which I
was looking for feedback about uprating my 1.9TD to 115bhp ( maybe even
loosing the cat and egr system ). I know that cooling would be a concern
such that on the hills I'd have to stick the internal heater on full warm to
counteract any big climbs.

But I must make the distinction now, that I do agree a full twin axle van
would be too much for this car. I'm more interested in finding out if my
Synergie could cope with a slim margin inside 1300kg MTPLM providing I did
do something about its rated power.
I am an engineer, and I look at this Synergie as a van based , rigid floored
, wide+wedge shaped car with ( as you say yourself ) a really short rear
overhang. I've got an aero shaped roof box currently on it which brings the
airflow right up to a potential caravans roofline. Apart from the power, its
got all the right cridentials to tow.

When people said they wouldn't even like to tow with 115bhp it caused me to
take a closer look at 4x4 diesels and see what kind of hp some of this big
2.8-3.1 ltr engined cars had. I was less than impressed at the figures and
feel the pre-98 ones were old dinosour technology , however robust they may
be.

The example I'm referring to is the 113bhp 3.1TD Isuzu Trooper. I do like
the look of this car but whats so special about 2060 kerb weight and
113horses. I am actually considering selling my 98 Synergie as I've had it
3yrs, but I still need it for this Summer. Maybe I will sell it, but I would
only touch one of the later Trooper diesels that were 157bhp or something
similar.
I've also just checked out the replacement of the Synergie called the C8.
The 2.0 diesel is only106bhp but that now has a breaked two limit of
1850kilos...go figure!


















  #6 (permalink)  
Old June 14th 05, 07:05 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
George Hendry
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 67
Default towing query - 2nd thread

Instead of looking at the peak power figure look even more closely at
the peak torque.

Compare the torque figures with the road speed by looking at the overall
gearing.

You will find that with the diesel engined cars the torque figure is in
excess of the petrol engined equivalent but more importantly it develops
very early in the rev range.

As an engineer you should appreciate the difference in power and torque.

With a large diesel engine as in the trooper or sedona you will find
that you have high to peak torque available in a rev range that equates
to 'normal' towing speeds. Now compare your power output the same way
and you will find that it peaks very high in the rev range and not at
normal towing speeds.

I have used this criteria in selecting towcars for many happy
caravanning years. Try the maths with your Synergie.

Even better is tow with an automatic and let the torque converter
provide both power and torque in the correct rev range for you.




Many years ago I was towing a sprite major with an Austin Princess and
the ratios were well inside the 85% limit and the manufacturers towing
limits. I was making good progress up a long and very steep road in
North Wales when I was forced to stop by traffic. It was impossible to
get the outfit moving again and I had to reverse it some 400 yards under
brown pants conditions. This was with all parameters inside what we
consider to be manufacturers guidelines (except that they measure it on
a slight gradient and I was on a 1 in 5 section of road)






In message , Tox O'Grady
writes

FWIW, I have a Citroen Dispatch 2.0 Hdi (95bhp) which is built on the
same chassis as your Synergie and it's a superb tug for the right 'van.
For that, I found it better, when hitched to my 1150 kg ABI, than the
Volvo 850 saloon that I recently replaced with a Pajero. IMO, the
Dispatch is nearly as good as the Pajero with the ABI.

Although, with its 140 bhp, the Volvo could pull the caravan up steeper
hills faster, the Dispatch got me from Plymouth to the Cotswolds a few
years ago and I only dropped below the limit twice because of hills
(Haldon Hill near Exeter, and Birdlip Hill on the escarpment up to the
Cotswolds). The Dispatch was so much more stable, which I put down to
firmer suspension, better aerodynamic "shielding" of the caravan, and a
shorter rear overhang.

Now, 85% of the 1310 kg Laguna kerbweight is just 1114 kg, which limits
your choice of caravan dramatically. Once you have a little experience,
you may be able to tow 1300 kg with the Laguna - but that's the towing
limit of the Synergie! So, whatever you buy, you can try both cars and
choose the tug that pans out best.

That said, of the two cars, instinct tells me that the Synergie will be
the better towcar, even though it has less power. Match it to a light
caravan (e.g. a Lunar Solar Eclipse 524, with MTPLM 1200 kg), and you
should have a good outfit - provided that you don't expect to break any
speed records!

HTH,

--
Geoff Lane
Cornwall, UK




Thanks Geoff, your comments do seem to support my earlier post in which I
was looking for feedback about uprating my 1.9TD to 115bhp ( maybe even
loosing the cat and egr system ). I know that cooling would be a concern
such that on the hills I'd have to stick the internal heater on full warm to
counteract any big climbs.

But I must make the distinction now, that I do agree a full twin axle van
would be too much for this car. I'm more interested in finding out if my
Synergie could cope with a slim margin inside 1300kg MTPLM providing I did
do something about its rated power.
I am an engineer, and I look at this Synergie as a van based , rigid floored
, wide+wedge shaped car with ( as you say yourself ) a really short rear
overhang. I've got an aero shaped roof box currently on it which brings the
airflow right up to a potential caravans roofline. Apart from the power, its
got all the right cridentials to tow.

When people said they wouldn't even like to tow with 115bhp it caused me to
take a closer look at 4x4 diesels and see what kind of hp some of this big
2.8-3.1 ltr engined cars had. I was less than impressed at the figures and
feel the pre-98 ones were old dinosour technology , however robust they may
be.

The example I'm referring to is the 113bhp 3.1TD Isuzu Trooper. I do like
the look of this car but whats so special about 2060 kerb weight and
113horses. I am actually considering selling my 98 Synergie as I've had it
3yrs, but I still need it for this Summer. Maybe I will sell it, but I would
only touch one of the later Trooper diesels that were 157bhp or something
similar.
I've also just checked out the replacement of the Synergie called the C8.
The 2.0 diesel is only106bhp but that now has a breaked two limit of
1850kilos...go figure!



















--
George Hendry
  #7 (permalink)  
Old June 14th 05, 07:05 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
George Hendry
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 67
Default towing query - 2nd thread

Instead of looking at the peak power figure look even more closely at
the peak torque.

Compare the torque figures with the road speed by looking at the overall
gearing.

You will find that with the diesel engined cars the torque figure is in
excess of the petrol engined equivalent but more importantly it develops
very early in the rev range.

As an engineer you should appreciate the difference in power and torque.

With a large diesel engine as in the trooper or sedona you will find
that you have high to peak torque available in a rev range that equates
to 'normal' towing speeds. Now compare your power output the same way
and you will find that it peaks very high in the rev range and not at
normal towing speeds.

I have used this criteria in selecting towcars for many happy
caravanning years. Try the maths with your Synergie.

Even better is tow with an automatic and let the torque converter
provide both power and torque in the correct rev range for you.




Many years ago I was towing a sprite major with an Austin Princess and
the ratios were well inside the 85% limit and the manufacturers towing
limits. I was making good progress up a long and very steep road in
North Wales when I was forced to stop by traffic. It was impossible to
get the outfit moving again and I had to reverse it some 400 yards under
brown pants conditions. This was with all parameters inside what we
consider to be manufacturers guidelines (except that they measure it on
a slight gradient and I was on a 1 in 5 section of road)






In message , Tox O'Grady
writes

FWIW, I have a Citroen Dispatch 2.0 Hdi (95bhp) which is built on the
same chassis as your Synergie and it's a superb tug for the right 'van.
For that, I found it better, when hitched to my 1150 kg ABI, than the
Volvo 850 saloon that I recently replaced with a Pajero. IMO, the
Dispatch is nearly as good as the Pajero with the ABI.

Although, with its 140 bhp, the Volvo could pull the caravan up steeper
hills faster, the Dispatch got me from Plymouth to the Cotswolds a few
years ago and I only dropped below the limit twice because of hills
(Haldon Hill near Exeter, and Birdlip Hill on the escarpment up to the
Cotswolds). The Dispatch was so much more stable, which I put down to
firmer suspension, better aerodynamic "shielding" of the caravan, and a
shorter rear overhang.

Now, 85% of the 1310 kg Laguna kerbweight is just 1114 kg, which limits
your choice of caravan dramatically. Once you have a little experience,
you may be able to tow 1300 kg with the Laguna - but that's the towing
limit of the Synergie! So, whatever you buy, you can try both cars and
choose the tug that pans out best.

That said, of the two cars, instinct tells me that the Synergie will be
the better towcar, even though it has less power. Match it to a light
caravan (e.g. a Lunar Solar Eclipse 524, with MTPLM 1200 kg), and you
should have a good outfit - provided that you don't expect to break any
speed records!

HTH,

--
Geoff Lane
Cornwall, UK




Thanks Geoff, your comments do seem to support my earlier post in which I
was looking for feedback about uprating my 1.9TD to 115bhp ( maybe even
loosing the cat and egr system ). I know that cooling would be a concern
such that on the hills I'd have to stick the internal heater on full warm to
counteract any big climbs.

But I must make the distinction now, that I do agree a full twin axle van
would be too much for this car. I'm more interested in finding out if my
Synergie could cope with a slim margin inside 1300kg MTPLM providing I did
do something about its rated power.
I am an engineer, and I look at this Synergie as a van based , rigid floored
, wide+wedge shaped car with ( as you say yourself ) a really short rear
overhang. I've got an aero shaped roof box currently on it which brings the
airflow right up to a potential caravans roofline. Apart from the power, its
got all the right cridentials to tow.

When people said they wouldn't even like to tow with 115bhp it caused me to
take a closer look at 4x4 diesels and see what kind of hp some of this big
2.8-3.1 ltr engined cars had. I was less than impressed at the figures and
feel the pre-98 ones were old dinosour technology , however robust they may
be.

The example I'm referring to is the 113bhp 3.1TD Isuzu Trooper. I do like
the look of this car but whats so special about 2060 kerb weight and
113horses. I am actually considering selling my 98 Synergie as I've had it
3yrs, but I still need it for this Summer. Maybe I will sell it, but I would
only touch one of the later Trooper diesels that were 157bhp or something
similar.
I've also just checked out the replacement of the Synergie called the C8.
The 2.0 diesel is only106bhp but that now has a breaked two limit of
1850kilos...go figure!



















--
George Hendry
  #8 (permalink)  
Old June 14th 05, 08:27 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Tox O'Grady
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 30
Default towing query - 2nd thread


"George Hendry" wrote in message
...
Instead of looking at the peak power figure look even more closely at the
peak torque.

Compare the torque figures with the road speed by looking at the overall
gearing.

You will find that with the diesel engined cars the torque figure is in
excess of the petrol engined equivalent but more importantly it develops
very early in the rev range.

As an engineer you should appreciate the difference in power and torque.



My part of engineering is associated with the driven end of the equipment
( centrifugal pumps). I only need to tell a motor/turbine vendor my absorbed
power&required speed and let them take on the responsibilty of having enough
torque in their selected machine. Only on rare occasions do I have to sort
out a speed/torque curve and this is because they want to meet stringent
starting current requirements.

However this query has never been about petrol engined cars.

Torque is a function of power&speed, so the reason diesels have more torque
is because the rev range is less.
I can't remember the precise calc, but Torque in NM is something like (KW x
9549) / RPM
( okay let me try this....90kW x 9549 divide by peak rpm of say 4200
=...205NM )

In practically all cases, the pre 98 Isuzu Trooper is 25% up on my Synergie.
The power & torque are proportionally 25% higher, but so is the mass of the
vehicle. This is also played out when comparing 0-60 times, the Synergie is
15s and the Trooper is 16s.

I do realise the big thing is 'where' across the rev range that the torque
comes in, but I don't have access to any curves to study. I would be
interested to see a curve from a peugeot/citroen XUD engine tuner to verify
the tuned 115bhp curve. Its fair to say that it would not be much use having
115bhp at 4200 rpm for towing.














  #9 (permalink)  
Old June 14th 05, 08:27 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Tox O'Grady
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 30
Default towing query - 2nd thread


"George Hendry" wrote in message
...
Instead of looking at the peak power figure look even more closely at the
peak torque.

Compare the torque figures with the road speed by looking at the overall
gearing.

You will find that with the diesel engined cars the torque figure is in
excess of the petrol engined equivalent but more importantly it develops
very early in the rev range.

As an engineer you should appreciate the difference in power and torque.



My part of engineering is associated with the driven end of the equipment
( centrifugal pumps). I only need to tell a motor/turbine vendor my absorbed
power&required speed and let them take on the responsibilty of having enough
torque in their selected machine. Only on rare occasions do I have to sort
out a speed/torque curve and this is because they want to meet stringent
starting current requirements.

However this query has never been about petrol engined cars.

Torque is a function of power&speed, so the reason diesels have more torque
is because the rev range is less.
I can't remember the precise calc, but Torque in NM is something like (KW x
9549) / RPM
( okay let me try this....90kW x 9549 divide by peak rpm of say 4200
=...205NM )

In practically all cases, the pre 98 Isuzu Trooper is 25% up on my Synergie.
The power & torque are proportionally 25% higher, but so is the mass of the
vehicle. This is also played out when comparing 0-60 times, the Synergie is
15s and the Trooper is 16s.

I do realise the big thing is 'where' across the rev range that the torque
comes in, but I don't have access to any curves to study. I would be
interested to see a curve from a peugeot/citroen XUD engine tuner to verify
the tuned 115bhp curve. Its fair to say that it would not be much use having
115bhp at 4200 rpm for towing.














  #10 (permalink)  
Old June 14th 05, 09:20 PM posted to uk.rec.caravanning
Hitch Lock
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 692
Default towing query - 2nd thread

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Tox O'Grady wrote:

Its fair to say that it would
not be much use having 115bhp at 4200 rpm for towing.


Precisely - unless you want to go everywhere in 3rd gear, that is!

When I'm towing with my Volvo V70 2.5 TDI, I can comfortably cruise at 70 in
5th on a motorway (when the fuzz are not looking!). Fifth gear is about 30
mph per 1000 rpm - so this equates to only about 2300 rpm, where there is
lots of torque available (it's nothing like full throttle, except on
inclines). Although, technically, I have 140 BHP available at 4200 rpm, I
can't get anywhere near harnessing it - unless I were to rush up a steep
hill in 2nd gear with the engine screaming.
--
Cheers,
Hitch Lock
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.


 



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